43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:55 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:47 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:40 pm
H2X wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:34 pm


I particularly like the shifts on [SIN] [COS] [TAN], SHOW landing on [.], CPX close to COMPLEX, and HOME close to the shift key.

R.BR and B.BR look fine, also the shaded menu options are growing on me. They especially look nicer than underlines when the label texts are long.
Thanks for the feedback.
I was worried we are on a roll, missing something important.
j
What is the f() shift option on the [EXIT] key? Do we have to g() shift [EXIT] to switch the calculator off? If yes - isn't this a bit obscure?
[f]EXIT] is a printing function, not yet functional.
[g][EXIT] is OFF.

The blue OFF is located next to ON. I think that is nice.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:58 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:31 pm
Another little note, but then is enough from my side for today. We have violated the law 'no stack operations on the cursor keys'. Couldn't you put CNST on [g] [Cursor UP], CNST needs a lot of cursor operations to scroll through the menus anyway. And then distribute STK, CPX and EXP as logically as possible across the [g] positions of [x<>y], [CHS] and [EEX].
I like CPX and EXP there.

Some further ideas on to of your suggestion:

Move CNST to [g][Up]. Benefit it is very convenient at shift Up, close to the arrows.
Move STK to [f][-]. Benefit: Move away STK away from arrows, and move directly next to the programming group.
Move FIN to [g][CHS]. FIN is a direct 'math' menu albeit financial, so I am comfortable having [g][EEX].
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

StatsDoctor
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by StatsDoctor » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:06 pm

The development of the alternative key layout and all of the discussion about this is very interesting, and has been a lot of work for those directly involved with this. Is there any chance that SwissMicros would manufacture a 43S and a 43C, or would they (as a small company) be stretched too thin to do this? Did a discussion on this already take place, in which case I may have missed it?

Thanks,

Bob O.
Bob O.
DM42, DM15L, WP-34S, HP-42S, HP-32S, HP-32Sii, HP-15C; iOS: Free42, 42s (Byron), WP-34S, HP-15C

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:11 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:55 pm
[f]EXIT] is a printing function, not yet functional.
[g][EXIT] is OFF.

The blue OFF is located next to ON. I think that is nice.
Print? To paper?

I can understand "printing" to a file, but in that case I might also like the option to "tee" everything to a file, suggesting maybe a print - edit: or file - menu with several options. That would of course depend on the main project.

Just printing to paper, as the label implies, strikes me as obsolete. Is it really worth that prime piece of real estate?

Blue OFF is obscure, but also nerdy. Way cool. Go for it! :-)
Last edited by H2X on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:16 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:31 pm
We have violated the law 'no stack operations on the cursor keys'.
I wasn't aware of that law, but maybe it does make sense to obey it.
Last edited by H2X on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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Jaymos
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:23 pm

StatsDoctor wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:06 pm
The development of the alternative key layout and all of the discussion about this is very interesting, and has been a lot of work for those directly involved with this. Is there any chance that SwissMicros would manufacture a 43S and a 43C, or would they (as a small company) be stretched too thin to do this? Did a discussion on this already take place, in which case I may have missed it?

Thanks,

Bob O.
Hi Bob,

I don't know the answer to this, maybe a question on the other "43 News" list would get you most answers.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:22 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:58 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:31 pm
Another little note, but then is enough from my side for today. We have violated the law 'no stack operations on the cursor keys'. Couldn't you put CNST on [g] [Cursor UP], CNST needs a lot of cursor operations to scroll through the menus anyway. And then distribute STK, CPX and EXP as logically as possible across the [g] positions of [x<>y], [CHS] and [EEX].
I like CPX and EXP there.

Some further ideas on to of your suggestion:

Move CNST to [g][Up]. Benefit it is very convenient at shift Up, close to the arrows.
Move STK to [f][-]. Benefit: Move away STK away from arrows, and move directly next to the programming group.
Move FIN to [g][CHS]. FIN is a direct 'math' menu albeit financial, so I am comfortable having [g][EEX].
I absolutely agree with this adjustment, for me such a change would make absolutely sense. There are more than enough direct stack functions on the keyboard. Those who need an exotic function outside of creating a program will also find STK at the bottom right.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 285
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:26 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:16 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:31 pm
We have violated the law 'no stack operations on the cursor keys'.
I wasn't aware of that law, but maybe it does make sense to obey it.
It was an urgent concern of me, so no, it is not a 'law', but I still think, we should not mix cursor keys with stack manipulation.
DM42 SN:00032

Helix
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Helix » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:30 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:05 am
I would really like input from everyone as to the idea of shaded menu items as opposed to underlined.
Here are my comments:

1. I don't like the underlined labels.

2. The color of the background for the shaded labels should be darker. Only a subtle change is necessary to be visible, since these rectangles cover a relatively large surface.

3. I don't find the current shaded forms very satisfying. The problem is the size discrepancy of these rectangles. The result looks messy. But perhaps this would be better with a darker background?

4. Just a thought: instead of underlined labels, could we draw a thin line just above the labels?

5. I wonder if such menu indicators are necessary at all. After all, both the 28C and the 50g don't have such features, and I don't think users complained about that. A clean and nice keyboard is certainly a priority.

6. I don't know if letters should be white or in another color, but red color for the physical faceplate should be avoided. Because of human eye characteristics, red marking on a dark background is a poor solution for visibility. A light green for example would be more efficient.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:41 pm

Helix wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:30 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:05 am
I would really like input from everyone as to the idea of shaded menu items as opposed to underlined.
Here are my comments:

1. I don't like the underlined labels.

2. The color of the background for the shaded labels should be darker. Only a subtle change is necessary to be visible, since these rectangles cover a relatively large surface.

3. I don't find the current shaded forms very satisfying. The problem is the size discrepancy of these rectangles. The result looks messy. But perhaps this would be better with a darker background?

4. Just a thought: instead of underlined labels, could we draw a thin line just above the labels?

5. I wonder if such menu indicators are necessary at all. After all, both the 28C and the 50g don't have such features, and I don't think users complained about that. A clean and nice keyboard is certainly a priority.

6. I don't know if letters should be white or in another color, but red color for the physical faceplate should be avoided. Because of human eye characteristics, red marking on a dark background is a poor solution for visibility. A light green for example would be more efficient.
Thank you for the input. Appreciated.

1. I see some gravity towards the 28S inspired shading over the 34S legacy underlining.
2. I will try a shade darker, see the post after this one.
3. I agree the forms aren't great, but that is automatic layout on the emulator. I don't plan to determine how to make it look better on the emulator soon. The template for the real DM42 will be designed using calculator-like fonts and definitely the shading will be better done on the manual layout tool than on the emulator.
4. Maybe Dani could try a mockup?
5. Interesting thought.
6. Thank you. The red lettering was an experiment and we also prefer non red.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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