43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:07 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:51 pm

Would a tri-state shift button appeal to the forum? That is, press once to activate the first shifted mode (f), once more to activate the second (g), and once more again to return to unshifted.
I find this an interesting idea that I can investigate to possibly have my personal version be DM42 keyboard compatible (with single shift key) (and possibly with no actual key stickers and only a large overlay).

I will look at the code for such thing in my alternative layout and report back if there is something to say.

Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:26 pm

Re - maximizing utility:
Untapped potential also lies in 'shifting' each shift key. For example an [f] [g] press in sequence would yield [h]. Any thoughts ... ?
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:36 am

inautilus wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:26 pm
Re - maximizing utility:
Untapped potential also lies in 'shifting' each shift key. For example an [f] [g] press in sequence would yield [h]. Any thoughts ... ?
There is the matter of exiting a shifted mode / undoing wrong shift key presses to consider. The [f] [g] sequence might read as "f pressed by mistake, but the mistake was corrected implicitly by pressing g".

Of course, the mistake might also be corrected explicitly by pressing [f] [f], then pressing [g]. Note that this sequence ends with [f] [g] and may have alternative interpretations if following your suggestion.

Combinations of (n) key presses to reach a (n + 1)th state start sounding confusing to me, but do we need this extra shifted state in the first place?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:03 am

Thank you H2X. The feedback is welcome, and appreciated.

My intent is to bring to light as many potential opportunities that may not have, as of yet, been considered. They then, once exposed in the brutal light of day, might be critiqued, beaten up, even dismissed, or ... possibly ... sometimes ... improved upon. It's all good ... a 'survival of the fittest sort of fate. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to the developers to consider their usefulness and feasibility.

An alternate entry method (untapped as of yet) might also be variations on: hold the first key down [f] in this case.... and then tapping the second [g] to effect/execute [h] ... or some other useful task (other than [h]).
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:13 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:03 am
Thank you H2X. The feedback is welcome, and appreciated.

My intent is to bring to light as many potential opportunities that may not have, as of yet, been considered. They then, once exposed in the brutal light of day, might be critiqued, beaten up, even dismissed, or ... possibly ... sometimes ... improved upon. It's all good ... a 'survival of the fittest sort of fate. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to the developers to consider their usefulness and feasibility.

An alternate entry method (untapped as of yet) might also be variations on: hold the first key down [f] in this case.... and then tapping the second [g] to effect/execute [h] ... or some other useful task (other than [h]).
Apologies if I sounded critical! I love exchanging ideas and running with them in all possible directions.

Assuming the answer to my last question is yes, we need the extra shifted state - and questions like how to deal with potentially ambiguous sequences of key presses (and labelling of keys) are answered as well, I am no stranger to the idea nor the debate.

Besides my recent tri-state shift key suggestion, which has some support in how some menu buttons work on other electronic devices (and even case switching in alpha mode on the DM42), I am also comfortable with the concept of long pressing (certain) keys to add extra semantics, if those semantics make sense and the overall user experience is good. And documentation concerns are met...
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:53 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:13 pm
inautilus wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:03 am
My intent is to bring to light as many potential opportunities that may not have, as of yet, been considered. They then, once exposed in the brutal light of day, might be critiqued, beaten up, even dismissed, or ... possibly ... sometimes ... improved upon. It's all good ... a 'survival of the fittest sort of fate. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to the developers to consider their usefulness and feasibility.

An alternate entry method (untapped as of yet) might also be variations on: hold the first key down [f] in this case.... and then tapping the second [g] to effect/execute [h] ... or some other useful task (other than [h]).
Apologies if I sounded critical! I love exchanging ideas and running with them in all possible directions.

Assuming the answer to my last question is yes, we need the extra shifted state - and questions like how to deal with potentially ambiguous sequences of key presses (and labelling of keys) are answered as well, I am no stranger to the idea nor the debate.

Besides my recent tri-state shift key suggestion, which has some support in how some menu buttons work on other electronic devices (and even case switching in alpha mode on the DM42), I am also comfortable with the concept of long pressing (certain) keys to add extra semantics, if those semantics make sense and the overall user experience is good. And documentation concerns are met...
Be assured I won't apologize for sounding or even being critical. OTOH, I can stand critics as well (if I don't, please point me to it).

Regarding recent proposals for alternative shift functionalities (an obviously fascinating topic popping up every once and a while):
  • We are not short of label space so far - two keyboard locations are still free (let's call them Bob's memorial lots for the time being). We have lots of space in menus, and if we'd really need some extra functions on the keyboard I could remove some shifted functions from it which are also stored in menus; this would mean some shuffling, nothing more.
    .
  • Please keep simple things simple:
    • A keystroke shall stay a keystroke. And an extra long keystroke will fall back to NOP like on the 42S, 34S, and 31S.
    • The latter doesn't apply to shift keys, hence a prefix pressed twice will clear this prefix like on the 42S, 34S, and 31S.
    • Any other double keystroke will execute the respective function twice like on the 42S, 34S, and 31S. We carefully tried to avoid double key presses (looks successful so far).
  • If you want some fundamental changes of the UI (like double or long pressing etc.), feel free to look in the draft Owner's Manual at least and check collateral effects and consequences caused by your change proposal if accepted - if you find nothing but advantages and easier operation then go ahead. (BTW, also the entire most recent official layouts are printed in said manual.)
At the bottom line, please let's keep the UI as simple as possible - the world is complex enough.
In one word: KISS.
Thanks.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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