43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:07 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:51 pm

Would a tri-state shift button appeal to the forum? That is, press once to activate the first shifted mode (f), once more to activate the second (g), and once more again to return to unshifted.
I find this an interesting idea that I can investigate to possibly have my personal version be DM42 keyboard compatible (with single shift key) (and possibly with no actual key stickers and only a large overlay).

I will look at the code for such thing in my alternative layout and report back if there is something to say.

Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:26 pm

Re - maximizing utility:
Untapped potential also lies in 'shifting' each shift key. For example an [f] [g] press in sequence would yield [h]. Any thoughts ... ?
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:36 am

inautilus wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:26 pm
Re - maximizing utility:
Untapped potential also lies in 'shifting' each shift key. For example an [f] [g] press in sequence would yield [h]. Any thoughts ... ?
There is the matter of exiting a shifted mode / undoing wrong shift key presses to consider. The [f] [g] sequence might read as "f pressed by mistake, but the mistake was corrected implicitly by pressing g".

Of course, the mistake might also be corrected explicitly by pressing [f] [f], then pressing [g]. Note that this sequence ends with [f] [g] and may have alternative interpretations if following your suggestion.

Combinations of (n) key presses to reach a (n + 1)th state start sounding confusing to me, but do we need this extra shifted state in the first place?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:03 am

Thank you H2X. The feedback is welcome, and appreciated.

My intent is to bring to light as many potential opportunities that may not have, as of yet, been considered. They then, once exposed in the brutal light of day, might be critiqued, beaten up, even dismissed, or ... possibly ... sometimes ... improved upon. It's all good ... a 'survival of the fittest sort of fate. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to the developers to consider their usefulness and feasibility.

An alternate entry method (untapped as of yet) might also be variations on: hold the first key down [f] in this case.... and then tapping the second [g] to effect/execute [h] ... or some other useful task (other than [h]).
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:13 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:03 am
Thank you H2X. The feedback is welcome, and appreciated.

My intent is to bring to light as many potential opportunities that may not have, as of yet, been considered. They then, once exposed in the brutal light of day, might be critiqued, beaten up, even dismissed, or ... possibly ... sometimes ... improved upon. It's all good ... a 'survival of the fittest sort of fate. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to the developers to consider their usefulness and feasibility.

An alternate entry method (untapped as of yet) might also be variations on: hold the first key down [f] in this case.... and then tapping the second [g] to effect/execute [h] ... or some other useful task (other than [h]).
Apologies if I sounded critical! I love exchanging ideas and running with them in all possible directions.

Assuming the answer to my last question is yes, we need the extra shifted state - and questions like how to deal with potentially ambiguous sequences of key presses (and labelling of keys) are answered as well, I am no stranger to the idea nor the debate.

Besides my recent tri-state shift key suggestion, which has some support in how some menu buttons work on other electronic devices (and even case switching in alpha mode on the DM42), I am also comfortable with the concept of long pressing (certain) keys to add extra semantics, if those semantics make sense and the overall user experience is good. And documentation concerns are met...
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:53 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:13 pm
inautilus wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:03 am
My intent is to bring to light as many potential opportunities that may not have, as of yet, been considered. They then, once exposed in the brutal light of day, might be critiqued, beaten up, even dismissed, or ... possibly ... sometimes ... improved upon. It's all good ... a 'survival of the fittest sort of fate. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to the developers to consider their usefulness and feasibility.

An alternate entry method (untapped as of yet) might also be variations on: hold the first key down [f] in this case.... and then tapping the second [g] to effect/execute [h] ... or some other useful task (other than [h]).
Apologies if I sounded critical! I love exchanging ideas and running with them in all possible directions.

Assuming the answer to my last question is yes, we need the extra shifted state - and questions like how to deal with potentially ambiguous sequences of key presses (and labelling of keys) are answered as well, I am no stranger to the idea nor the debate.

Besides my recent tri-state shift key suggestion, which has some support in how some menu buttons work on other electronic devices (and even case switching in alpha mode on the DM42), I am also comfortable with the concept of long pressing (certain) keys to add extra semantics, if those semantics make sense and the overall user experience is good. And documentation concerns are met...
Be assured I won't apologize for sounding or even being critical. OTOH, I can stand critics as well (if I don't, please point me to it).

Regarding recent proposals for alternative shift functionalities (an obviously fascinating topic popping up every once and a while):
  • We are not short of label space so far - two keyboard locations are still free (let's call them Bob's memorial lots for the time being). We have lots of space in menus, and if we'd really need some extra functions on the keyboard I could remove some shifted functions from it which are also stored in menus; this would mean some shuffling, nothing more.
    .
  • Please keep simple things simple:
    • A keystroke shall stay a keystroke. And an extra long keystroke will fall back to NOP like on the 42S, 34S, and 31S.
    • The latter doesn't apply to shift keys, hence a prefix pressed twice will clear this prefix like on the 42S, 34S, and 31S.
    • Any other double keystroke will execute the respective function twice like on the 42S, 34S, and 31S. We carefully tried to avoid double key presses (looks successful so far).
  • If you want some fundamental changes of the UI (like double or long pressing etc.), feel free to look in the draft Owner's Manual at least and check collateral effects and consequences caused by your change proposal if accepted - if you find nothing but advantages and easier operation then go ahead. (BTW, also the entire most recent official layouts are printed in said manual.)
At the bottom line, please let's keep the UI as simple as possible - the world is complex enough.
In one word: KISS.
Thanks.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

hth313
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Re: 43S News

Post by hth313 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:56 pm

The keyboard is still wrong, when is it going to be fixed?

The arithmetic keys are on the left side, but in the wrong order. Either you follow the illogical classic style (like HP-41) as we old people have muscle memory, or you make it logical. You do not mix the two, simple as that.

If you want to make it logical, it can make sense to put the arithmetic operators in the logical order, but then there is no longer a reason to have it on the left side. Simply move it to the right side.

We start from the left and go to the right (when we read). So we should have the ON button on the left side. We use RPN, so to add five we press 5 PLUS. Operation follows numeric entry, which means it is more logical to have the common arithmetic operators on the right hand side.

What about the ENTER key? It can either stay left (not logical), or move to right side (logical as it follows numeric entry). The backspace should be on the right side as we delete from the right, so it would have to move up above ENTER (like on computer keyboards) or be the key just before ENTER.

Now after I explained this, take a look at the keyboard and honestly tell me if you (still) think it has a logical layout.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:22 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:07 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:51 pm

Would a tri-state shift button appeal to the forum? That is, press once to activate the first shifted mode (f), once more to activate the second (g), and once more again to return to unshifted.
I find this an interesting idea that I can investigate to possibly have my personal version be DM42 keyboard compatible (with single shift key) (and possibly with no actual key stickers and only a large overlay).
The shift key cycling discussion above made me think of a new (unofficial) key layout for the WP43S using a single (cycled) shift key, with the sole purpose of making the calculator run on DM42 hardware without ugly primary key stickers.

The shift key cycling concept discussed above, was tested on the WP43S emulator using the single yellow shift key layout of the DM42 instead of the yellow/blue f/g keys. I remapped the WP43S emulator keyboard to match the DM42 primary keys, and the emulator does work.

I must say it feels different to use the emulator with double tap on the shift key for "g", but I feel it is something that I can get used to. Life is full of compromises, and the compromise here is: a weird double shift, for the advantage of having the all the functionality of the WP43S on the DM42 hardware without stickers, especially having the operators on the right hand side as well. Good enough reason for me to try at least.

Once it could be loaded onto the DM42 hardware (some day), a keyboard overlay would still have to be made for the shifted labels, but that is a lot less intrusive than key stickers and could arguably be a loose printed / cut cardboard thing or even a custom made vinyl sticker.

The layout is not ideal as yet and could be improved still. Some of the menus and functions had to find new places when I moved the primary keys around and the layout is not as logical as it should be. I think at this point though, it is good enough to share for comment.

Changes made:
1. Keys 1-6 on the second row were changed to the DM42 layout starting with Sigma+, 1/x, etc.
2. Keys 4-6 on row 3 were changed from CC [f] [g] to SIN COS TAN.
3. The 4 operator keys (/*-+) were shifted to the right hand side.
4. The up/dn arrows were raised by one row to free up the yellow shift key.
5. A toggle was included in the emulator function key processing, i.e. it cycles from f > g > clear with every successive presses of the shift key. The selected shift mode is already shown top left on the screen as you press the shift. See pic, “f” shown.
6. I moved some of the shifted functions around to achieve this.
7. I used up the three spare key locations (shifted 7 & 8).
8. I do not have a dedicated CC key any more, as the DM42 has this COMPLEX function on a shifted key, not primary. (You win some, you loose some).

Further changes made on the DM42 key version: I have changed numerous keys to suit myself, like lg>LOG, ln>LN, +/->CHS, E>EE, L>DRG, U-> > CONV, P/R>PRGM, CC>CPX, sin>SIN, etc. I also changed two menu layouts to my liking, i.e. the CPX and EXP to suit myself. The CPX menu is on the pic below.

Below the new re-arranged layout for use on DM42 (LEFT), with the current official WP43S layout RIGHT.
Image
New DM42 compatible layout (LEFT), official WP43S layout RIGHT
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:22 pm

More WP43S emulator testing: On the current emulator version,

1. Complex entry comment:
[RESET] 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER] does work and produces 5+i*1
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] does not work. I would have expected the [CC] to take the X register while in entry mode. This would be convenient.
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [ENTER] [g] [DROP] [CC] does work and produces 5+i*1

2. OM, v0.12, p118: "DEG, RAD, GRAD, MULπ, and D.MS, all stored in MODE". D.MS is not settable in MODE.

3. d.ms functionality:
[RESET] 5.2 [f] [d.ms] works and produces 5'20 and the angle mode indicates ADM as L" which is expected.
Accidentally pressing [f] [.d] converts to 5.333333, but the ADM stays in L" which should show decimal degrees to correspond with 5.333.

4. About [CC]
[CC] is only really needed when you already have selected the CPX menu to access the other complex functions. The [CC] key could easily sit in the function menu keys 1-6 as a primary. When moved to the a menu, the cryptic [CC] could be replaced with [COMPLEX] in the menu, as is used on the HP42S and DM42. I tried to add [CC] to a menu item (in the code), but it does not work as it is a special key case.

The advantage if you would get rid of the [CC] from the primary keys, is that you could use this key for TRI, which will release a primary key space in the math group for something like Xˆ2 or Xth.root.ofY. Personally I would like Xˆ2 on a primary.

Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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RAPo
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Re: 43S News

Post by RAPo » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:34 am

If there is another voting round on the layout, your proposal would certainly get my vote.
To have, sin, cos directly available and operators on the right hand is very important.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:22 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:07 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:51 pm

Would a tri-state shift button appeal to the forum? That is, press once to activate the first shifted mode (f), once more to activate the second (g), and once more again to return to unshifted.
I find this an interesting idea that I can investigate to possibly have my personal version be DM42 keyboard compatible (with single shift key) (and possibly with no actual key stickers and only a large overlay).
The shift key cycling discussion above made me think of a new (unofficial) key layout for the WP43S using a single (cycled) shift key, with the sole purpose of making the calculator run on DM42 hardware without ugly primary key stickers.

The shift key cycling concept discussed above, was tested on the WP43S emulator using the single yellow shift key layout of the DM42 instead of the yellow/blue f/g keys. I remapped the WP43S emulator keyboard to match the DM42 primary keys, and the emulator does work.

I must say it feels different to use the emulator with double tap on the shift key for "g", but I feel it is something that I can get used to. Life is full of compromises, and the compromise here is: a weird double shift, for the advantage of having the all the functionality of the WP43S on the DM42 hardware without stickers, especially having the operators on the right hand side as well. Good enough reason for me to try at least.

Once it could be loaded onto the DM42 hardware (some day), a keyboard overlay would still have to be made for the shifted labels, but that is a lot less intrusive than key stickers and could arguably be a loose printed / cut cardboard thing or even a custom made vinyl sticker.

The layout is not ideal as yet and could be improved still. Some of the menus and functions had to find new places when I moved the primary keys around and the layout is not as logical as it should be. I think at this point though, it is good enough to share for comment.

Changes made:
1. Keys 1-6 on the second row were changed to the DM42 layout starting with Sigma+, 1/x, etc.
2. Keys 4-6 on row 3 were changed from CC [f] [g] to SIN COS TAN.
3. The 4 operator keys (/*-+) were shifted to the right hand side.
4. The up/dn arrows were raised by one row to free up the yellow shift key.
5. A toggle was included in the emulator function key processing, i.e. it cycles from f > g > clear with every successive presses of the shift key. The selected shift mode is already shown top left on the screen as you press the shift. See pic, “f” shown.
6. I moved some of the shifted functions around to achieve this.
7. I used up the three spare key locations (shifted 7 & 8).
8. I do not have a dedicated CC key any more, as the DM42 has this COMPLEX function on a shifted key, not primary. (You win some, you loose some).

Further changes made on the DM42 key version: I have changed numerous keys to suit myself, like lg>LOG, ln>LN, +/->CHS, E>EE, L>DRG, U-> > CONV, P/R>PRGM, CC>CPX, sin>SIN, etc. I also changed two menu layouts to my liking, i.e. the CPX and EXP to suit myself. The CPX menu is on the pic below.

Below the new re-arranged layout for use on DM42 (LEFT), with the current official WP43S layout RIGHT.
Image
New DM42 compatible layout (LEFT), official WP43S layout RIGHT
SN:00074

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