43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:11 pm

rprosperi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 am
burkhard wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 pm
But it's not a question (for me) of "early" or "late" HP layout. I am actually OK with EITHER the "early" or the "late" layout.
What I would really prefer to avoid is a hybrid that is neither... i.e. putting the operators on the left like the "early" ones, but arranging them in the "late" ones' order as is the present WP43S official development path. That I think is a mistake.

In the end though, I have no cause to complain and I'll buy the darned thing no matter what. :D
I'm just going to cringe a bit that neither of the existing two conventions was followed.
It's not a casual mistake, and I'm sure Walter has a reason, so let's just ask:
and
Walter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:23 pm
On your request I've to quote myself (sorry). Please read all of the following - no cherry picking:
Walter wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:27 pm
jfb9301 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:39 pm
Why are the operators /*-+ on the left and the exit, up, down... on the right?
As Bob ((Prosperi)) wrote already, this is a religuous topic ;) Nevertheless I'll try to summarice the facts:

All of HP's pocket calculators up to and including the famous HP-41C had the arithmetic operators on the left below ENTER. The Voyagers had to put them on the right for obvious reasons ((placing them in the middle of the keyboard would look really odd)). With the Pioneers, they staid on the right - but ENTER remained on the left. So much about HP's logical ((keyboard layout)) development.

There was a very extensive discussion of this topic on the forum of MoHPC in 2012 IIRC, followed by a poll. After all, many people agreed on ENTER and the 4 operators should be in the same column (for various reasons). And the poll resulted in our decision (we, the developers) to place the 4 operators on the left, backed by a majority of votes IIRC. ((And to intercept legends arising: at said poll, the order of arithmetic operators was as it is today - constant for 7 years. You can verify this easily.))

So, now they are there.
Some additional remarks:
  1. HP abandoned ÷ × + - in 1981, turning to + - × ÷. This latter sequence has a lot more inherent logic than the former. And up to now, nobody (no survivor, no adept) was able to tell the reason for that odd old order of operators. I can't promote a product I'm unable to justify.
    .
  2. Please note we're in 2019, not 1981 anymore. What would people of 2019 say if we'd drop operator order of today for an order of 1972 for no other reason than nostalgia? If you cannot adapt to one change in four decades you're probably petrified already. (BTW: Didn't the USA promise to go metric in 1975? So much about effective application of international standards in the USA. Thus, as an 'old European' I'm always slightly amused when US citizens mention standards [bitter grin]. Get your homework done before clashing another expensive probe on whatever planet.[/rant])
    .
  3. We will stick to the standard order of arithmetic operators as everyone learned, learns, and will learn at school worldwide for good reasons. Promised. But none of us will interfere when you tell your grandkids that there once was another order on some old calculators long ago (Grandpa, you're kidding! Why on earth should they've done it that weird way?!). Promised as well.
Huh! I was wrong... there isn't a reason. :o

Other than W & P like it that way. Which to be fair, is equally valid as my own "I'd like it the way it was". After all, these are just opinions.

I've no interest in waging a war over a religious topic, sadly there are too many people in the world doing this already. If the 43S is delivered as planned, I'll get one and learn to use it (at least some of it) and probably get used to it. If one can adapt to the 50g layout, this is trivial.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:55 am

rprosperi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:11 pm
rprosperi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 am
burkhard wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 pm
But it's not a question (for me) of "early" or "late" HP layout. I am actually OK with EITHER the "early" or the "late" layout.
What I would really prefer to avoid is a hybrid that is neither... i.e. putting the operators on the left like the "early" ones, but arranging them in the "late" ones' order as is the present WP43S official development path. That I think is a mistake.

In the end though, I have no cause to complain and I'll buy the darned thing no matter what. :D
I'm just going to cringe a bit that neither of the existing two conventions was followed.
It's not a casual mistake, and I'm sure Walter has a reason, so let's just ask:
and
Walter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:23 pm
On your request I've to quote myself (sorry). Please read all of the following - no cherry picking:
Walter wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:27 pm
As Bob ((Prosperi)) wrote already, this is a religuous topic ;) Nevertheless I'll try to summarice the facts:

All of HP's pocket calculators up to and including the famous HP-41C had the arithmetic operators on the left below ENTER. The Voyagers had to put them on the right for obvious reasons ((placing them in the middle of the keyboard would look really odd)). With the Pioneers, they staid on the right - but ENTER remained on the left. So much about HP's logical ((keyboard layout)) development.

There was a very extensive discussion of this topic on the forum of MoHPC in 2012 IIRC, followed by a poll. After all, many people agreed on ENTER and the 4 operators should be in the same column (for various reasons). And the poll resulted in our decision (we, the developers) to place the 4 operators on the left, backed by a majority of votes IIRC. ((And to intercept legends arising: at said poll, the order of arithmetic operators was as it is today - constant for 7 years. You can verify this easily.))

So, now they are there.
Some additional remarks:
  1. HP abandoned ÷ × + - in 1981, turning to + - × ÷. This latter sequence has a lot more inherent logic than the former. And up to now, nobody (no survivor, no adept) was able to tell the reason for that odd old order of operators. I can't promote a product I'm unable to justify.
    .
  2. Please note we're in 2019, not 1981 anymore. What would people of 2019 say if we'd drop operator order of today for an order of 1972 for no other reason than nostalgia? ...
    .
  3. We will stick to the standard order of arithmetic operators as everyone learned, learns, and will learn at school worldwide for good reasons. ...
Huh! I was wrong... there isn't a reason. :o

Other than W & P like it that way. Which to be fair, is equally valid as my own "I'd like it the way it was". After all, these are just opinions.

I've no interest in waging a war over a religious topic, sadly there are too many people in the world doing this already. If the 43S is delivered as planned, I'll get one and learn to use it (at least some of it) and probably get used to it. If one can adapt to the 50g layout, this is trivial.
Huh! I thought having given enough reason. :o

The post of March 2018 explains why the operators shall be located left.
The post of yesterday explains why the order of operators shall be + - × ÷.

Or did I miss anything? :?
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HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

dlachieze
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Re: 43S News

Post by dlachieze » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:43 am

Walter wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:55 am
The post of March 2018 explains why the operators shall be located left.
The post of yesterday explains why the order of operators shall be + - × ÷.
Yes I know, but I just think that the operators order and location should be linked and not dissociated as I expressed in the original poll. All my calculators with the operators on the left follow the same operators order, same for all my HP calculators with operators on the right. The WP 43S will be in a 3rd group of its own.

I’m not asking you to change the WP 43S, I was just commenting initially on the customization shared above by Jaymos. IIRC, end users will be able to reassign any key through the user mode, and if the software remains open source it may also be possible to make this change permanent.
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:25 am

dlachieze wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:43 am
... I just think that the operators order and location should be linked and not dissociated as I expressed in the original poll. All my calculators with the operators on the left follow the same operators order, same for all my HP calculators with operators on the right. The WP 43S will be in a 3rd group of its own.
You may also say the WP 43S combines the advantages of both worlds. ;) :D

(Actually, people thinking they know a link of order and location are going the way of the dodo bird.)

Edited to rephrase the last sentence.
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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:02 am

Gentlemen ... very impressive project! Almost overwhelmingly ambitious. Many ... MANY... moving parts. I am truly in awe of those that are holding it all together. Up until now I've only been watching from the sidelines as a new (although highly interested) non-contributor. I would be very grateful if someone might direct me to the most current up to date version of the 43S keyboard layout ... so that I could pour over and delight in all of the care, consideration and intelligence of it's current state of design. Perhaps it could be re-posted here? Thank you in advance.

rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:08 pm

Walter wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:55 am
rprosperi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:11 pm
Huh! I was wrong... there isn't a reason. :o

Other than W & P like it that way. Which to be fair, is equally valid as my own "I'd like it the way it was". After all, these are just opinions.

I've no interest in waging a war over a religious topic, sadly there are too many people in the world doing this already. If the 43S is delivered as planned, I'll get one and learn to use it (at least some of it) and probably get used to it. If one can adapt to the 50g layout, this is trivial.
Huh! I thought having given enough reason. :o

The post of March 2018 explains why the operators shall be located left.
The post of yesterday explains why the order of operators shall be + - × ÷.

Or did I miss anything? :?
I don't consider the comments you provided as compelling logical reasons, rather they're emotional "I think this way and you should too".

That said, if indeed the debate and "vote" taken in 2012 time frame (though I believe it was later than that) did submit left- vs. right- side location, but in both cases utilized the same 'modern' sequence of operators, then I can conclude that people were most likely voting for the big issue of side and missed the sequence subtlety, but should be willing to live with the vote's results; I don't believe there was any attempt to hide or down-play the sequence, simply that folks were voting about the 'big' issue and missed others.
Last edited by rprosperi on Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
--bob p

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akaTB
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Re: 43S News

Post by akaTB » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:05 pm

rprosperi wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:08 pm
Walter wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:55 am
rprosperi wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:11 pm
Huh! I was wrong... there isn't a reason. :o

Other than W & P like it that way. Which to be fair, is equally valid as my own "I'd like it the way it was". After all, these are just opinions.

I've no interest in waging a war over a religious topic, sadly there are too many people in the world doing this already. If the 43S is delivered as planned, I'll get one and learn to use it (at least some of it) and probably get used to it. If one can adapt to the 50g layout, this is trivial.
Huh! I thought having given enough reason. :o

The post of March 2018 explains why the operators shall be located left.
The post of yesterday explains why the order of operators shall be + - × ÷.

Or did I miss anything? :?
I don't consider the comments you provided as compelling logical reasons, rather they're emotional "I think this way and you should too".

That said, if indeed the debate and "vote" taken in 2012 time frame (though I believe it was later than that) did submit left- vs. right- side location, but in both cases utilized the same 'modern' sequence of operators, then I can conclude that people were most likely voting for the big issue of side and missed the sequence subtlety, but should be willing to live with the vote's results; I don't believe there was any attempt to hide or down-play the sequence, simply that folks were voting about the 'big' issue and missed others.

8<----- snipped on request... ;)
And here we go again...

I already stopped participating in polls about vaporware on MoHPC after one of those was re-submitted since somebody didn't like the result.
In my view, then, only those that commit to buy at least one specimen should be admitted to vote.
It's full of "me too", but not so many shell out a fair amount of money on these gadgets once they see the light.

No democracy? Well, customerocracy.

So no, you won't have my vote. The poll will end up with a right side preference, then some other "adjustment" will be proposed, and so on and on, slowing down development.
I will buy it anyway, as I did with each project this community proposed in these years. Can't you just adapt too?

Heck! I also bought a DM41 and its unbereable keyboard layout... :roll:
Last edited by akaTB on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong

rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:30 pm

akaTB wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:05 pm
And here we go again...

I already stopped participating in polls about vaporware on MoHPC after one of those was re-submitted since somebody didn't like the result.
In my view, then, only those that commit to buy at least one specimen should be admitted to vote.
It's full of "me too", but not so many shell out a fair amount of money on these gadgets once they see the light.

No democracy? Well, customerocracy.

So no, you won't have my vote. The poll will end up with a right side preference, then some other "adjustment" will be proposed, and so on and on, slowing down development.
I will buy it anyway, as I did with each project this community proposed in these years. Can't you just adapt too?

Heck! I also bought a DM41 and its unbereable keyboard layout... :roll:
You're probably right Massimo, we need more progress, not perfection.

I withdraw my Poll suggestion, and have removed that above (please do the same to yours). And like you, I'll buy one, however it comes out (unless some demonic force shifts it to Algebraic).

Lesson learned - read those polls very carefully...
--bob p

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:56 pm

Gentlemen, having not heard back yet, can I assume that the most up-yo-date iteration of the 43s keyboard is the following ...? I fear I may not have this right. Please advise. Thank you.
Attachments
DM 43S.png
DM 43S.png (224.46 KiB) Viewed 65 times

rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:28 pm

I don't believe that is the latest, as I'm quite sure the [TRG] key became [TRI] and moved to the top row.

This is an image I have from 181216, mocked-up on a DM42:
Status_181216.jpg
Status_181216.jpg (129.53 KiB) Viewed 52 times
Note [USR] has become [UM] for User Menu

But I am fairly certain there was another change since then (Something about Complex mode?). Hopefully Walter will post and set the record straight.
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