43S News

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:10 pm
the DM42 has all operators on the right and the DM41X on the left for some inexplicable reason, and in reverse order too.
The reasons are very simple to explain.

In 1972 a well known tech-company brought the world's first scientific pocket calculator. Other then most business calculation machines (with the "+" on the right bottom near the "=") this calculater uses simply postfix notation (aka RPN/Reverse Polish notation) with a keyboard layout that was optimized for engineers and scientists (more Information about this in the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone).

This design was typical for HP-Calculators for many years (the last calculator with this layout was the HP-41CX introduced in 1983 and discontinued in 1990). The keyboard-layout of the DM41X was designed like this calculators.

Later HP changed the design and oriented themselves towards the competition. After this they brougt a RPN-Calculator with a Design which more looks like a "normal" AOS Calculator (i.a. the HP42s). The DM42 got his layout from this calculator.

Some Companys (like Commodore in the 1970th or Casio/HP10s or Numworks) uses a third Layout */ and +- in different rows.

All this layouts have people who like them, people who hate them and users who tolerate them because they want the functionality.

I was afraid that the DM43 came with an other different design which was a new design that mixes the scientific-calculator Key-Position with the business-calculation Key-Order and combines their disadvantages and can so be hated by fans of the old and the new design. Some cheap chinese calculators are designed that way - loveless, the main thing is that it works somehow.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:16 pm
In 1972 a well known tech-company brought the world's first scientific pocket calculator. Other then most business calculation machines (with the "+" on the right bottom near the "=") this calculater uses simply postfix notation (aka RPN/Reverse Polish notation) with a keyboard layout that was optimized for engineers and scientists (more Information about this in the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone).
Can you give me a link, please?
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
Peet
Posts: 99
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:58 pm
Can you give me a link, please?
https://ethw.org/Milestones:Development ... ator,_1972
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
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Jaymos
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos »

Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:58 pm
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:16 pm
In 1972 a well known tech-company brought the world's first scientific pocket calculator. Other then most business calculation machines (with the "+" on the right bottom near the "=") this calculater uses simply postfix notation (aka RPN/Reverse Polish notation) with a keyboard layout that was optimized for engineers and scientists (more Information about this in the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone).
Can you give me a link, please?
A quick Google search brought me to a defunct link and a visit to the wayback machine popped out a link which could well be the intended.

In my opinion it was pretty much a mixed bag around the turn of the decade on the sequence of the operators prior to HP. Operators mostly on the right hand side though. This one seems to be the first battery operated calculator which does classify in a way as the first of a breed, and this one too. OTOH, the HP9100A seems to be from another aspect the leader of the genre, having it on the left hand side in sequence /*-+.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
STS-741
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Location: Europe

Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:16 pm
This design was typical for HP-Calculators for many years (the last calculator with this layout was the HP-41CX introduced in 1983 and discontinued in 1990). The keyboard-layout of the DM41X was designed like this calculators. Later HP changed the design and oriented themselves towards the competition. After this they brought an RPN-Calculator with a design, which more looks like a "normal" AOS calculator (i.a. the HP-42s). The DM42 got his layout from this calculator.
I was already familiar with all of this, apart from the reasons that led to the sudden change in the layout of the HP-41CX. But I can well imagine what the reactions of the users at the time looked like and what disappointment it was for most of them. Today we know what a fatal error this decision by HP was, so the return to the usual order was a logical consequence.
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:16 pm
All this layouts have people who like them, people who hate them and users who tolerate them because they want the functionality.
Intelligent design should not have anything to do with what people like or hate, but rather what is necessary for the most efficient operation possible. What people hate most are inexplicable changes that no one can understand. Personally, however, I could understand that the order of the individual functions is taken into account in various arithmetic operations and that the keys are therefore arranged according to obviously strategic aspects, among other things.
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:16 pm
I was afraid that the DM43 came with an other different design which was a new design that mixes the scientific-calculator key-position with the business calculation key-order and combines their disadvantages and can so be hated by fans of the old and the new design. Some cheap Chinese calculators are designed that way - loveless, the main thing is that it works somehow.
I would have found that strange too, it's lucky for everyone here that no Chinese work at SwissMicros. :lol:
STS-741
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Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:38 pm
In my opinion it was pretty much a mixed bag around the turn of the decade on the sequence of the operators prior to HP. Operators mostly on the right hand side though.
Correct, and for this very reason, the operators should always be arranged on the right side! You can see that on the HP Prime, even though it is in a different league.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos »

STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:38 pm
In my opinion it was pretty much a mixed bag around the turn of the decade on the sequence of the operators prior to HP. Operators mostly on the right hand side though.
Correct, and for this very reason, the operators should always be arranged on the right side! You can see that on the HP Prime, even though it is in a different league.
You can't really say that. There are a heap of units in red, and in green, and then some others too, but where the magnet is to change either that for the 43S, I do not know.

Some history on the operators I put together last year ...
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X »

I suggest the pudding proof.

If the pudding is good, it will be evident when eating it. Grab a simulator (or flash a DM42), and see what happens.

Then do report back! :D
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
STS-741
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Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:12 pm
You can't really say that. There are a heap of units in red, and in green, and then some others too, but where the magnet is to change either that for the 43S, I do not know.
If it had been the other way around, could one still speak of a proven concept?! I don't think so, since most people are right-handed and that's a fact. It would be downright perverse, if not to say detrimental to business, to orientate oneself to a minority of 10% - 15% left-handers. There are therefore very few calculators from HP that actually had the operators on the left. As you can see, I can really say that! ;)
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos »

STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:53 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:12 pm
You can't really say that. There are a heap of units in red, and in green, and then some others too, but where the magnet is to change either that for the 43S, I do not know.
If it had been the other way around, could one still speak of a proven concept?! I don't think so, since most people are right-handed and that's a fact. It would be downright perverse, if not to say detrimental to business, to orientate oneself to a minority of 10% - 15% left-handers. There are therefore very few calculators from HP that actually had the operators on the left. As you can see, I can really say that! ;)
I don’t think handedness plays a role. Not for me anyway. I am left handed and prefer the operators on the right.

But muscle memory plays a large role and for that I will not own a 41 or earlier unit. For the same reason you have to respect those who can operate a 41 or 25 blindfolded. SM seems to understand that. One each. Kudus to them.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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