43S News

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

This week, we don't have any changes since the finished sections keep looking good and the unfinished ones keep being work in progress. 8-)
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

/*-+ on the left is like a car with the steering wheel on the left and pedals on the right.
Classic HP: -+*/ on the left (portrait) or /*-+ on the right (landscape)
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:18 pm
Classic HP: -+*/ on the left (portrait) or /*-+ on the right (landscape)
To make a long story short: we'll put − + * / on the left as soon as you give us the reason for that sequence (for sake of clarity: tradition is no reason). For comparison: + − * / is the sequence these operators are introduced in school, beginning with the easiest and increasing difficulty. Looking forward to your reasoning.
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:49 am
(for sake of clarity: tradition is no reason).
In this point I have a different opinion. If you are a builder of "homages" then tradition should be a reason as long this brings no disadvantage.
If there are two common layouts and millions of people are used to them than you should have a reason to broke with them and not have to justify if you use one of these.

I don't know why the Number-Layout on calculators are the oposite of phones and also don't know why all rpn calculators with the arithmetic key on the left has an other order then on the right but if you want to introduce a different and unusual layout, than it shouldn't only confuse the user, it shoud have any advantage.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
STS-741
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Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:49 am
For comparison: + − * / is the sequence these operators are introduced in school, beginning with the easiest and increasing difficulty. Looking forward to your reasoning.
Dear Walter, the procedure in school lessons has absolutely nothing to do with the logic of the arrangement in the user area. The design of keyboards, and by that I mean basically every keyboard, is exclusively subject to anthropotechnical and ergonomic aspects. As you know, the DM42 has all operators on the right and the DM41X on the left for some inexplicable reason, and in reverse order too. Ideally, the operators should always remain to the right, starting with / × + -, i.e. from top to bottom. However, I don't know how the respective functions are arranged on the DM42 when you use it as a 43s, because it has them on the right by default. :)
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:23 am
If you are a builder of "homages" then tradition should be a reason as long this brings no disadvantage.
First misunderstanding: The 43S is no "homage".
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:23 am
If there are two common layouts and millions of people are used to them than (!) you should have a reason to broke (!) with them and not have to justify if you use one of these.
(Exclamation marks added by me.)

Second misunderstanding: Millions of people used Roman numerals for tradition - nevertheless Arabic numerals took over in mediaeval times. There were obvious advantages. Tradition is no reason.
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:23 am
I don't know why ... all rpn calculators with the arithmetic key (!) on the left has (!) an other order then on the right but if you want to introduce a different and unusual layout, than (!) it shouldn't only confuse the user, it shoud (!) have any advantage.
HP had to switch the arithmetic keys to the right with the Voyagers - the alternative would have been placing them in the middle which is obvious BS. I assume that HP took the opportunity to abandon their old scheme then and to bring the operators in the logical mathematical order and in line with other calculator manufacturers (in the 1980s).

Regarding the 43S, we conducted a poll in 2012 about the location of these four keys: the result was they should be placed beneath ENTER. We follow this vote. Until there is a convincing reason for / * + −, we follow the logical mathematical order + − * / as I wrote above.
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:34 pm
HP had to switch the arithmetic keys to the right with the Voyagers
No they don't. HPs landscape calculators allways had them on the right side in /*-+ order and portrait on the left with -+*/ (compare HP67 vs 97 or take a look on the 71b). So the Voyagers had a "classic" Layout.

They switch on Portrait from "RPN-Style" to (TI-)AOS-Style after gave up RPN as their core competency and made Algebraic or hybrid calculators (like HP48) or uses same housings/key-layouts for AOS & RPN-Calc (e.g. 22S and 32S).
Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:34 pm
Until there is a convincing reason for / * + −, we follow the logical mathematical order + − * / as I wrote above.
Oh, I overlooked this. I feared you want to create a frankenstein with /*-+ on the left. A new "classroom"-Order looks interesting for young (maybe teenage) Users.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
STS-741
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Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:45 pm
Oh, I overlooked this. I feared you want to create a Frankenstein with / * - + on the left. A new "classroom"-order looks interesting for young (maybe teenage) Users.
That would perhaps be an excellent idea for so-called "next generation" calculators, with a configurable layout and freely interchangeable key tops. Then every user can choose where he or she wants certain keys. Even left-handers would be delighted! :D
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akaTB
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Re: 43S News

Post by akaTB »

STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:10 pm
Ideally, the operators should always remain to the right
That's just your preferred choice.
As you can see below mine is different.
Greetings,
    Massimo
ajcaton
-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:10 pm
... the procedure in school lessons has absolutely nothing to do with the logic of the arrangement in the user area. The design of keyboards, and by that I mean basically every keyboard, is exclusively subject to anthropotechnical and ergonomic aspects.
Ok, fine. So we have / × − + on all modern calculators top down for "anthropotechnical and ergonomic" reasons. I can live with this.
STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:10 pm
As you know, the DM42 has all operators on the right and the DM41X on the left for some inexplicable reason, and in reverse order too. Ideally, the operators should always remain to the right, starting with / × + -, i.e. from top to bottom.
Where did you see such a calculator?!? And about the 'inexplicable reason': HP started with − + × / for a reason no one remembers anymore. It switched to modern standard order with the Voyagers (as explained above).
STS-741 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:10 pm
However, I don't know how the respective functions are arranged on the DM42 when you use it as a 43s, because it has them on the right by default. :)
The 43S keys get a different print. :)
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
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