43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:48 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:27 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:08 am
Now to the layout itself. Theoretically the "empty" use of the function keys F1..F6 should never happen. Here I have not yet formed a final opinion whether labels are useful here. In the simulator you can of course imagine a dynamic labeling.
But if you keep this innovation, I could imagine the function [CLX/A] on F6. I know, I had not yet commented this point.
What do you mean with [CLX/A]?
I have removed CLSTK from F6 because I added CLSTK to the long press CLR, and I wanted the top part of the calculator for more direct math.
... are in NIM you can't call CLX/A just like that ( on the HP-41C this function is on f[BSP]). I had thought that if F6 is free, you can find this function there. But actually I got used to cancel the NIM with EXIT a long time ago and afterwards the key [BSP] has the functionality CLX...

I am still intrigued with this functionality during NIM.
In the WP43 series, the function of f[<-] can be different for each different calculator mode.

Is it feasible to specify the expected behaviour more specifically to me for f[<-] during NIM?

Maybe it can simply work in NIM?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus »

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:13 pm
inautilus wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:13 am
.
WP43C - Faceplate Layout Update ...
General items:

1. I would like to see the very thin lines a little thicker. I am worried about paint not properly showing on the template, i.e. not being sufficiently dense. I indicated in the detailed doc linked, where needed. I am referring to the lower case letters in the top row, specifically: a, b/c, d, ms, the lines of |x|, the lines of the % and Δ% and arrow up/dn can be a little thicker.
Several times now you have expressed concern Re potential issues when printing in fine detail. Are there going to be issues ... what is possible, and what isn't. Please forgive me if you've already 'been there, done that'. And, it may be that the project is already locked into and is now committed to some other particular printing process (I don't know).

So, after only a quick scan, it seems that this is not Mission Impossible after all. As an alternative to the double-shot key production for instance, HP switched over to printing ... and has continued executing high quality, durable, and exceptionally fine detailed printing on calculator keys (and faceplates) ... ever since. So, if they can do it ... then it can be done! Just pull out your humble 35s and check it out.

The question now is ... what is/was their production process.

See the following:

"HP 35s Construction
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_35s)

The HP 35s was designed by Hewlett-Packard in conjunction with Kinpo Electronics of Taiwan, which manufactures the calculator for HP in mainland China.[7]

According to HP, the calculator has been engineered for heavy-duty professional use, and has been tested under extreme environmental conditions.[7] It is built using 25 screws for rigidity and ease of maintenance.

The case features many design elements from 1970s HP calculators such as the ground-breaking HP-65, including a black case with silver-striped curved sides, slope-fronted keys, and gold and blue shift keys. The faceplate is metal, bonded to the plastic case. The key legends are printed, rather than the double-shot moulding used in the vintage models.

The calculator is powered by two CR2032 button cells, which it is advised to replace one at a time, to avoid memory loss.[4]

It was initially supplied with a hard zippered clamshell case with a pocket for notes, and a printed manual,[8] but this was later changed to a slipcase made of vinyl-covered cardboard with elastic sides and velvet lining, and a CD-ROM containing a PDF manual.

The calculator is entirely self-contained; there is no facility for upgrading the firmware, nor for loading/saving programs and data."
.
Any thoughts ...?
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:08 am
Do we still need the Caps Lock on [SIN]? The cursor keys work quite well with regard to this functionality.
I needed to check the code to answer this question: Yes, caps lock f[SIN] in AIM needs to stay.

The emulator has special function to automatically change case when you type Right-Shift with a letter.

In order to to this, the emulator actually sends a keypress to the calculator of f[SIN], which in AIM is Caps Lock.So I can't take out the manual caps lock. We can only decide to either remove or not remove the 43S way of changing case. I prefer to leave in both.

Best
J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:42 pm
..., I support the proposal to add the extended functionality of SHOW to the VIEW function, which would relieve SHOW of the need to scroll through the numeric registers. 8-)

The layout police

I have now for testing purposes separated the new SHOW and the OLD show functions. The old one does not have arrows and no large print. The new one has arrows and cycles through XYZTABCDIJKL then again X, and shows text, short integers, longints, reals and complex numbers.

For the time being (until 43S completes the VIEW command) I hooked the new SHOW function to the existing VIEW label f[0]. On the old SHOW label, it simply does the old SHOW function. Have a look. I have not integrated the new SHOW code into the main project (edit: this means SHOW is still a test branch) as yet, but this compile is up to date with everything including the last 43S updates.

I also realised that VIEW will work better on f[0] than on g[0], same as SHOW, which is also on f. I therefore swapped VIEW to f[0] and TIMER to g[0]. I trust this is ok, do make a noise if not.

Dani, could you please do us a Windows simulator compile, of the SHOW compile, 82b87b5.Thanks Dani.
.
Here is the DM42 image.

Here is the simulator. Do remember to remove the binary.bin file when updating.
.
The latest simulator screen shot:
Image
.
Edited to include the simulator.
Last edited by Jaymos on Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

inautilus wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:40 pm
... it may be that the project is already locked into and is now committed to some other particular printing process (I don't know).
First, I comment on the process:

The process started is a very informal test. And as you saw in the same weekend it was handed to the printer we changed 4 or 5 things again. That is part of this process. It is and must be iterative. So the only process in progress is the making of a template which involves laser cutting of the material, and printing on it as a test, to see if the cut lines are correct, if the concept works, etc. And if the printing is bright enough. The second time printing, I will use the same or different material, and I will no doubt have comments on changes on the graphic.

Nothing is locked into and we must navigate a way forward to suite ourselves.

The first process I see: The way I see it is that there are laser cutting of soft material done in every city almost. And printing. Once I can get a combination of material, machine, source files, and capable printer (person), I can document those steps and make that available. My cut line file will be free for use under GPL. If your template is covered under the same GPL, then there is a solution where users can make a template themselves or order one from another party who could make and sell them under the rules of GPL.

The second process I see is a follow up meeting of the meeting Dani had with Michael of SwissMicros in August 2019, for Swissmicros to make templates and sell new WP43C units. I also want to explore the possibility of SM selling a conversion kit, to convert a DM42 to a WP43C. The steel plate which has the apertures for the buttons and the painted text is replaceable without opening the DM42, so it is possible. H2X had to replace his due to lifting of the edges with a new one from SM.

Third processes could well be further companies who can make templates, you have mentioned a very competent company for that.
inautilus wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:40 pm
Several times now you have expressed concern Re potential issues when printing in fine detail. Are there going to be issues ... what is possible, and what isn't. Please forgive me if you've already 'been there, done that'.
That is all they are: potential. There are no hard rules. The best answer is it depends. And if you have the luxury of money, make more than one realistic test on the target medium. Then you know if the process works or not. There are many processes for marking equipment and protecting it. The ones I was involved in taught me the basic rule that if the lines are wider, more paint gets stuck and the less your chance for blotches is.

However, my first line of comment on layout is always technical printing related, i.e. the bigger the better.
My second line is always that it must be balanced. Spacing is not mathematical. It needs an 'eye' and involves juggling until the eye sees it right. Like a good photo: If you use thirds, it is sterile and if you balance it, it becomes alive. Relative sizes of letters and exponents is a balancing act.

inautilus wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:40 pm

So, after only a quick scan, it seems that this is not Mission Impossible after all. As an alternative to the double-shot key production for instance, HP switched over to printing ... and has continued executing high quality, durable, and exceptionally fine detailed printing on calculator keys (and faceplates) ... ever since. So, if they can do it ... then it can be done! Just pull out your humble 35s and check it out.

The question now is ... what is/was their production process.
I actually went to fetch my 35S and I agree, their lines are fairly thin. I would be happy with that kind of process. And the important thing is: If we ensured that the letters are legible and properly done, then, if the printing result exceeds your expectations, you would have an exceptionally legible and clear faceplate.

If you look carefully on the photo though, there are lessons from HP's HP35S layout. Personally I think they could have spent more time critically analysing what they have on there, and they can no doubt improve f[MODE], f[sqrt], f[2], and if you look hard maybe some more:
.
IMG_3572a.png
IMG_3572a.png (161.3 KiB) Viewed 3035 times
HP35S
.
Lessons:
  • Their caps letters are as large as it can be. Larger=better vision. In fact they are marginally larger than ours.The slanted surface lettering is very small in places and those printed ok.
  • Their the-root-of-y letters are too small, too close together. I mean you only have a point to increase, but the eye notices that.
  • Their root-of-y x and y are the same size. If you make the exponent even smaller, it is simply too small to be seen, leave alone the other reasons.
  • Their x's are not controlled to be the same sizes for the same kind of functions. See f[RCL], f[MODE]. Also see their smaller x not consistent, see f[sqrtx] and f[1/x].
  • Their white lettering on the buttons are VERY thick strokes, which is what is needed to get the paint to stick. My DM42 key strokes and square root line are SO thin and blotchy and I think that is really not up to scratch for the great machine it is.
  • f[2] shows they used multiple sizes for the same class of functions, compare with f[6].This they did because their choice of font for lower case letters had suboptimal stems on the b, d, g, l, etc. They should have picked a font with shorter stems and they should have had the difference between caps and lower less pronounced.
  • g[5] shows KM instead of km. I would rather die. Eeek.
  • Roll up and down arrow heads are unnecessarily small. They had space. They should have looked.
All in all, they should have had a another internal review prior to committing to the master positives...
inautilus wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:40 pm
"HP 35s Construction
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_35s)

The case features many design elements from 1970s HP calculators such as the ground-breaking HP-65, including a black case with silver-striped curved sides, slope-fronted keys, and gold and blue shift keys. The faceplate is metal, bonded to the plastic case. The key legends are printed, rather than the double-shot moulding used in the vintage models.

It was initially supplied with a hard zippered clamshell case with a pocket for notes, and a printed manual,[8] but this was later changed to a slipcase made of vinyl-covered cardboard with elastic sides and velvet lining, and a CD-ROM containing a PDF manual.
I have the hard zippered case but time was not kind to the case.

Either way, a nicely built modern calculator with a depressing way of working. I literally never used mine for more than a few calculations.

Edit: fixed obvious typographical errors.
Edit2: thanks for pointing out the error, corrected in red above.
Last edited by Jaymos on Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Post above was edited to include the simulator.

Regards
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:50 am
I have the hard zippered case but time was not kind to the case.
I think the correct term is "spacetime was not kind to the case". I suspect gravity might have been involved. :lol:

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Interesting read, though. Can't wait to see how our faceplate prints! :-)
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Hi all,

I need help on the PPP label. Currently it is Pre-packed Profile and I do not like it.

One option that was proposed to me was: Personal Profile. PP is already better than PPP.

More options: what about something with the suffix "PAC" in the spirit of all the PACs for the 41.

Maybe

SPAC for Setting Pac?
CPAC for CFG pac
APAC for ASN PAC
ASNP for ASN PAC (a bit too much like ASN).

It is already on the same button [1] as f[1]=ASN, so maybe just g[1]=PAC, so that the label will read ASN PAC on [1].
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:57 pm
Hi all,

I need help on the PPP label. Currently it is Pre-packed Profile and I do not like it.

One option that was proposed to me was: Personal Profile. PP is already better than PPP.

More options: what about something with the suffix "PAC" in the spirit of all the PACs for the 41.

Maybe

SPAC for Setting Pac?
CPAC for CFG pac
APAC for ASN PAC
ASNP for ASN PAC (a bit too much like ASN).

It is already on the same button [1] as f[1]=ASN, so maybe just g[1]=PAC, so that the label will read ASN PAC on [1].
PP and PAC are certainly better than PPP, but might PRE also work?

It occurs twice in the definition in the differences document: "Pre-packed Profiles or PPP are combinations of preset groups of assigned keys, to do a quick reconfiguration of multiple keys."
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

H2X wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:05 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:57 pm
Hi all,

I need help on the PPP label. Currently it is Pre-packed Profile and I do not like it.

One option that was proposed to me was: Personal Profile. PP is already better than PPP.

More options: what about something with the suffix "PAC" in the spirit of all the PACs for the 41.

Maybe

SPAC for Setting Pac?
CPAC for CFG pac
APAC for ASN PAC
ASNP for ASN PAC (a bit too much like ASN).

It is already on the same button [1] as f[1]=ASN, so maybe just g[1]=PAC, so that the label will read ASN PAC on [1].
PP and PAC are certainly better than PPP, but might PRE also work?

It occurs twice in the definition in the differences document: "Pre-packed Profiles or PPP are combinations of preset groups of assigned keys, to do a quick reconfiguration of multiple keys."
At this stage the others I suggested are as bad.

In the running in the sequence of my liking it:

PAC
PRE
PP
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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