43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Walter wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:35 pm
(As mentioned before, keyboards featuring letters in alphabetic order are an acquired taste for people used to QWERTZ, at least for me. So I'm thankful for some hints like D with decimal and dekadic log, E with e^x, J with complex, S with statistics, T with transforms, U with units, X with X.FN, and also Q with XEQ.)
I agree that keyboards with alphabetical ordering of keys are obnoxious, but I see them so often that I have gotten used to them. Several calculators, even classic HP's, have them, my "smart" TV has it, and the list goes on.

Just saying. You decide. I'll live with it either way.

(PS: Now that you have pointed it out, I find the mnemonic connections amusing. I like them. Had you not mentioned them, I might have never noticed. But while I now do like them, they are not what my memory relies upon to locate the keys. My brain sees a coordinate grid, not individual landmarks within. I am also used to QWERTY, albeit not the US nor the UK layouts. 'nuff said. This IS your baby, AND your call.)
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rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:38 pm

Walter wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:35 pm

Now, what do you want to move where to?
You asked for comments from readers here, and a large percentage of the frequent contributors here have commented and agreed with my proposal, including several that have have been extensively analyzing keyboard layouts of several variations of the 43S for many months. I also note a complete lack of support for the proposed layout.

While I agree the combinations of memory aids you devised are clever on their own, they don't outweigh the disruption of the overall alpha layout, particularly since the Alpha labels we are discussing will actually be printed right on the bezel, reducing any strong need for memory aids at all.

As for specifically what should be moved where:

"N" and the 2 glyphs in blue above the N all move to the "/" primary key
"O" and the 2 glyphs in blue above the O all move to the "7" primary key
"P" and the 2 glyphs in blue above the P all move to the ""8" primary key
"Q" moves to the "9" primary key
":" moves to the "XEQ" primary key

For the first 3, the mnemonic association for the Greek characters with the primary letters (which is of course why you put them there) is still valid and helpful, since they are not printed. And as there are (currently) no [f] and [g]-shifted functions on these keys, there are no other associations to be lost.

Please consider the evidence and comments you've seen here objectively, all coming from folks that really want to use this machine. I think you'll have to conclude it's both a change for the better and will contribute in a small way to easier 43S adoption and use.

Thanks
--bob p

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:17 pm

rprosperi wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:38 pm
Walter wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:35 pm
Now, what do you want to move where to?
You asked for comments from readers here, and a large percentage of the frequent contributors here have commented and agreed with my proposal, including several that have have been extensively analyzing keyboard layouts of several variations of the 43S for many months.
:lol: Statistics based on a very small population. Nice try though.
rprosperi wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:38 pm
I also note a complete lack of support for the proposed layout.
Not necessary. 8-) I note nearly 40 PO's placed, while just 3 people actually complain here (of whom only 2 placed an PO AFAICS).
rprosperi wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:38 pm
While I agree the combinations of memory aids you devised are clever on their own, they don't outweigh the disruption of the overall alpha layout, particularly since the Alpha labels we are discussing will actually be printed right on the bezel, reducing any strong need for memory aids at all.

As for specifically what should be moved where:

"N" and the 2 glyphs in blue above the N all move to the "/" primary key
"O" and the 2 glyphs in blue above the O all move to the "7" primary key
"P" and the 2 glyphs in blue above the P all move to the ""8" primary key
"Q" moves to the "9" primary key
":" moves to the "XEQ" primary key

For the first 3, the mnemonic association for the Greek characters with the primary letters (which is of course why you put them there) is still valid and helpful, since they are not printed. And as there are (currently) no [f] and [g]-shifted functions on these keys, there are no other associations to be lost.
Sorry, your moves are incomplete. Where do you want to put FLAGS? What has to vanish there then? Where to put this? Etc. Please complete.
rprosperi wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:38 pm
Please consider the evidence and comments you've seen here objectively, all coming from folks that really want to use this machine. I think you'll have to conclude it's both a change for the better and will contribute in a small way to easier 43S adoption and use.
Please see above.
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akaTB
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Re: 43S News

Post by akaTB » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 am

Bob, it's a lost cause. You should have realized this by now. :roll:
Greetings,
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rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:26 am

I'd like to believe that Walter's earlier claim that if I found support for the suggestion, he would reconsider... So I'll try a bit harder. 8-)

Though respondents of any kind to this topic are small in number, you have to concede that 100% in favor of idea B vs 0% in favor of idea A cannot be ignored. You asked for support and now you see it. Please don't insult us all (plus the other readers that didn't bother to reply as they know the game is rigged) by dismissing the replies as insufficient.

And you know quite well that nearly all of the 40 'orders' are from folks that have not read the thread, nor understand the issue; in fact, you have complained yourself about this very fact. You cannot count their silence as support for the baseline layout; I am honestly surprised you would attempt such a tactic; it surely means there is truly not much else to counter with.

Is there a reason FLAGS could not stay where it is, is FLAGS a valid command while in Alpha mode (I am traveling and don't have easy access to the manuals)? As for where to put FLAGS if it must be moved, it appears that [g]-[9] will do nicely.

I know you play to win, but please also play fairly while trying.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071, DM10L: 071/100

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pauli
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Re: 43S News

Post by pauli » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:07 am

Bob, I think your suggestions are worthy of further discussion. Walter can be convinced: it needs evidence and justification.


Pauli

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Mark Hardman
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Re: 43S News

Post by Mark Hardman » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:57 am

rprosperi wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:32 pm
I renew my plea to adjust the Alpha characters on the 5th line to the order NOPQ:.

If any readers agree, PLEASE post a comment of support.
I agree 100% with Bob. I would like to go one step further and ask that the 8th line be changed to Z, ?, comma, space.
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:12 am

We can discuss almost anything here but please do it comprehensively. E.g. FLAGS is inevitable in any mode since system flags were introduced. It must not go to g+9 since this location is taken by a Greek letter. (You can't know this unless you've read the manuals and understood their modifications - no offense intended, but that's basic.)

As mentioned, this thread is full of good proposals accepted. OTOH, quick and easy suggestions without thinking to the end may insult the other side. Repeating them doesn't make it better. So, please...
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tgray
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Re: 43S News

Post by tgray » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:18 pm

pauli wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:07 am
Bob, I think your suggestions are worthy of further discussion. Walter can be convinced: it needs evidence and justification.
I’ll be honest, I’ll buy one of these calculators but have decided it’s not worth my effort voicing my opinion about anything layout related. Thus I don’t participate in this or other 43S threads. I don't prefer many of the decisions made and would do things differently, but I’m not doing them, Walter is. I’m glad he’s working on it.

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:14 pm

For those of you interested in, an updated wp43s.exe was uploaded some minutes ago. Enjoy!
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