DM41X Alternative key layout

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
Dani R.
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:10 pm

ijabbott wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:03 am
Guenter wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:52 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:58 pm

Nice, Günter!

I think I heard you mention that the WP43C was not intended to have a faceplate with the blue labels, as it was only meant to "live" until the WP43S comes alive.

There is actually talk about a custom faceplate, and I for one certainly hope it lives on past the WP43S launch. I do prefer the C keyboard layout, and much of the other customizations make sense to me as well. I suspect I am not alone...
Thanks for your kind words. Sorry that I probably got this one with the faceplate wrong. I certainly also would love to have that overlay available, that would give a lot of flexibility. Perhaps you can give a respective comment to the video.

Günter
I think there will be a (small) market for custom-printed overlays once the new DM41X comes out, so whoever makes those ought to be easily persuaded to add a WP43C overlay to the collection.


More overlays are needed...


DM41X-Layout2.PNG
DM41X-Layout2.PNG (37.96 KiB) Viewed 1262 times


d
DM42 SN:00032

Boub65
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:34 pm
Location: Rabat, Morocco

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Boub65 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:13 pm

Dani...
I find this layout very well balanced... 👏👏👏
and we could still use the top keys for special DM platform assignements (Help, sound, police size, etc...) !
=> And... this design has the advantage of reinforcing DM brand...

I also don't care about HP41 keyboard compatibility...
if I ever want full compatibility I will buy an HP41 on ebay...

Edit: Now we just need to be able to choose an overlay configuration file in the Setting menu and the sky will be the limit...

Boubker.
2xDM15L, DM41L, DM42 SN#00855
TI-89 titanium, CASIO fx-cg50 (to play with micropython)

Dani R.
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:30 pm

Boub65 wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:13 pm
I also don't care about HP41 keyboard compatibility...
if I ever want full compatibility I will buy an HP41 on ebay...
You can't see it so well, but I named F1..F6 with an assumption, copied some labels from the video. I don't have any more details at the moment.

At the moment I don't know if we can develop our own alternative PGM or if only David can do it. And we don't have a commitment from SwissMicros that they would create such an overlay. I think this time it will take some effort to convince Michael that they are making such an overlay. The WP43C overlay didn't require any convincing.


Dani
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:00 pm

Yes, that would be great if we had, for example, four places where we can store different PGM's, so that you could choose in the DMCP menu which of the already loaded PGMs you want to run, without having to rewrite the flash memory every time.
Boub65 wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:13 pm
Edit: Now we just need to be able to choose an overlay configuration file in the Setting menu and the sky will be the limit...


@grsbanks, I would like to ask you to address this thread in the chat with Michael.

I was a heavy user of the HP-41C and bought all accessories and modules. Well, not quite right, I didn't jump on the HP-IL train anymore, so I still have the first original printer. The HP-41C was very useful to me at that time. I've been asking myself over and over again the last few years if I should buy 41CL and replace my overclocked board in the 41C. Now it is likely that a DM41X will appear.

I would have bought the DM-41 also if the basic operators had been located at the same position as on the DM-15. To be honest, I would consider this more practical for the DM-41. It is no longer a variant of the HP-35.

The DM42 has not only 37 keys, but even 43. Possibly this was already the intention to be able to cover the 41C.

What I saw in the video doesn't inspire me. Agreed to have the basic operators on the left like on the HP-35 is quite nice. But already the CLx key causes problems. On the right side you have one more column, with four additional keys. For me this doesn't feel right. Also and above all, if I put the HP-41C and the DM42 directly next to each other.

So I ask you to discuss with Michael whether a similar layout 2, as I suggested, could also be supported as a variant. Just making it available as a second PGM file would be helpful. David already had to use some tricks for the DM-41 to bend the keyboard layout, even in all modes the 41CX can be in. I am sure that David could support two versions. 'EXIT' could be simulated by running 'ALPHA' 'ALPHA' for example.

Regards
Dani
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
akaTB
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 11:56 am

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by akaTB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:12 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:00 pm
What I saw in the video doesn't inspire me. Agreed to have the basic operators on the left like on the HP-35 is quite nice. But already the CLx key causes problems. On the right side you have one more column, with four additional keys. For me this doesn't feel right. Also and above all, if I put the HP-41C and the DM42 directly next to each other.
Does it feel right for you shuffling around XEQ, STO, RCL, shift, operators side & order, linked alpha keys, just to name a few? :?
Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold

Dani R.
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:45 pm

akaTB wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:12 pm
Does it feel right for you shuffling around XEQ, STO, RCL, shift, operators side & order, linked alpha keys, just to name a few? :?
'XEQ' 'ALPHA' is enormously important to me. On the HP-41C, 'PRGM' and 'ALPHA' are outside the keypad. With the new keypad for the DM41X you have 'shift' and 'XEQ' next to each other, just like on the HP-41C. This is good. Even if the alpha is now blue and on the same line, I don't like that. In my suggestion you will find 'XEQ' at the usual place like on the DM42 and directly above you will find 'ALPHA'.
Is CLx all the way to the right? Hurts the original layout. Is it moved one column to the left, at the 'right' place? Goes against the hand.

Lately I use the DM42 mainly. So I won't have any trouble finding 'STO', 'RCL' and 'shift'. Also the basic operators won't give me a problem to find them. Look once. The hardware is the same as the DM42, the weight, everything. I have no optical and haptic hint at all that I have another calculator in my hand than the DM42. I get confused when the key layout is completely different to the DM42.

My only request is if it is possible to get an additional PGM for an alternative layout, for which we can create an overlay. It's absolutely okay for me, if SwissMicros designs a completely new keypad, it's just nothing for me.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:48 pm

Sorry, Massimo, I missed it.
Of course you are right:
-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold


:lol:
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
akaTB
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 11:56 am

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by akaTB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:02 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:45 pm

Lately I use the DM42 mainly. So I won't have any trouble finding 'STO', 'RCL' and 'shift'. Also the basic operators won't give me a problem to find them. Look once. The hardware is the same as the DM42, the weight, everything. I have no optical and haptic hint at all that I have another calculator in my hand than the DM42. I get confused when the key layout is completely different to the DM42.
Ok, I can understand, but DM42 (and HP42s) have little to do with an HP41 as far as the keyboard is concerned.
I strongly prefer a keypad as much as possible similar to the original: no landscape, no rearranged DM42.
Finger memory is important.

Delete in the middle of right border and R/S in the lower right are just were they should be.

But, as Robert warned in his presentation, these are religious issues. So it's perfectly fine if we see things differently. :)
Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold

User avatar
akaTB
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 11:56 am

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by akaTB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:04 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:48 pm
Sorry, Massimo, I missed it.
Of course you are right:
-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold


:lol:
Of course I am, as my coreligionists are as well! :lol:
Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold

Boub65
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:34 pm
Location: Rabat, Morocco

Re: DM41X Alternative key layout

Post by Boub65 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:39 pm

I understand that the underlying program will be an emulator of the HP41CX so it will be 99.99% similar in programming to the original HP41CX.
But the hardware platform, screen and keyboard, using DM42 platform will be different from original HP41CX.

So the question is...
Will DM41X customers be mainly :
- HP41 users that will not find the same screen but still ask for same exact keyboard 🤔
- DM42 users or NEW users interested in a modern HP41CX that will accept DM42 or any keyboard 👍

I am in the second category... and will be happy with a "close to DM42" layout...

Now..

DM42 and WP43s are build under GPL Licence so it is possible for any one (with very good skills) to create a different keyboard layout (and WP43C is a good example).
But, DM41X will be full Swissmicros property because they own 100% of the IP. So only David and Michael will be able to provide different layouts and especially a DM41X close to DM42... it's up to them to decide...

Cordialement, Sincerely,
Boubker.
2xDM15L, DM41L, DM42 SN#00855
TI-89 titanium, CASIO fx-cg50 (to play with micropython)

Post Reply