Problems with Catalog 4

Please report issues with the DM41X Beta Firmware in this sub-forum
Post Reply
ChrisB
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:57 pm

Problems with Catalog 4

Post by ChrisB »

When I press „Catalog 4“, it is difficult for me to stop the display of the catalog using R/S. Sometimes, the display stops, sometimes it doesn‘t. If it stops, I can use SST/BST to scroll, but not the arrow keys. All this works perfectly in, say, cat 3.

Firmware: 1.11t01
S/N 00059

- Chris
rprosperi
Posts: 1703
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by rprosperi »

I think there are 2 distinct issues, as follows:

1. Pressing [R/S] not registering: More than likely, what's happening is your press on [R/S] is not registering when you press, often because when you are running a CAT such as CAT-4, you are rushing to hit it quickly to catch it at the beginning of the file list, and in such haste, not hitting the key squarely and achieving the necessary click. One thing you can do (just to verify if this is the case) is set SLOW mode to slow the machine beginning the CAT listing.

2. SST/BST work, but Arrow keys do not: Do you have any modules loaded that may be trying to 'assist' the CAT listing such as AMC-OSX or the original CCD? This module 'locks' the shift mode on when you press BST so that subsequent presses of SST continue stepping backwards without having to press [shift] for each step (and can be confirmed by seeing the shift annunciator staying on).

On a normal 41, this is super useful and makes CAT stepping easier almost without noticing, but on the 41X can be confusing as the locked shift (which is 'pressed' when you press the up-arrow the first time) stays on and subsequent presses of up-arrow just continues to toggle it off/on - in this case, press up once to set 'back' mode and then press the down arrow repeatedly to step backwards.

If that's not the case, please remove all modules then re-test and describe exactly what the arrow keys do/don't do when you use them, your description doesn't explain this.

As general diagnostic advice, when you encounter suspected odd behavior, remove all modules and set SLOW mode and see if things become normal again, and if so, then put things back one item at a time and repeat, and most often you'll find the culprit.

I should have started by saying that these issues are not general problems affecting all machines, and likely a result of your machine and/or configuration.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
ChrisB
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by ChrisB »

Bob, thank you for your kind and detailed explanation!

I tried again. Here are the contents of Cat 4:

MYTEXT A020
AREA P013
SECRETS D020
FX1 P004

Here are my steps:

1. Unload all modules: active modules: <none>

2. SLOW

3. Catalog 4
—> MYTEXT A020

4. pressing and holding R/S
—> Display stops
I discovered that I need to press AND hold the R/S key, not just „tap“ it. Tapping doesn‘t register correctly.

5. SST
—> AREA P013

6. SST
—> SECRETS D020

7. SST
—> FX1 P004

(end of Cat 4)

==> SST behaves as expected

8. BST
—> SECRETS D020
(repeated until —> MYTEXT A020)

==> BST behaves as expected

9. Arrow down
—> AREA P013
(repeated until —> FX1 P004)

==> arrow down behaves as expected

10. Arrow up
—> FX1 P004
(that is, no reaction)

==> would have expected one up

but:

11. Shift Arrow up
—> SECRETS D020
(moves up)

12. Arrow up (unshifted)
—> FX1 P004
(moved down ?)

==> After playing around with this, I noticed that both arrow keys act like the SST / BST key. Unshifted, they move the Catalog one entry down (same behavior for up / down arrow key), shifted, they move the Catalog one entry up. The shift annunciator behaves as expected: on, when I press Shift, off, when I press the arrow key.

So, somehow, the calculator does not distinguish the two arrow keys and treats them the same.

Now, I‘m really curious if this is just on my machine / configuration or if one can duplicate this behavior.

- Chris
rprosperi
Posts: 1703
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by rprosperi »

ChrisB wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:43 pm

[snip]

==> After playing around with this, I noticed that both arrow keys act like the SST / BST key. Unshifted, they move the Catalog one entry down (same behavior for up / down arrow key), shifted, they move the Catalog one entry up. The shift annunciator behaves as expected: on, when I press Shift, off, when I press the arrow key.

So, somehow, the calculator does not distinguish the two arrow keys and treats them the same.

Now, I‘m really curious if this is just on my machine / configuration or if one can duplicate this behavior.

- Chris
You are quite right Chris, it behaves correctly for CAT-1, -2, and -3, but not for CAT-4, CAT-5 and CAT-6! Which makes no sense at all...

Please forgive my doubting your report, and thanks for patiently and carefully checking, testing, observing and clearly reporting.

I'll pass this along!
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
User avatar
pcscote
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 12:12 pm
Location: Québec/Canada

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by pcscote »

GETKEY report the following codes:

Code: Select all

11 12 13 14 15 01
21 22 23 24 25 02
31 32 33 34 35 04
  41  42 43 -- 44
51  52  53  54 35
61  62  63  64 35
71  72  73  74 03
81  82  83  -- 84
[DM1x/DM1xL/DM41/DM41L/DM41X/DM42]
Geoff Quickfall
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 10:44 pm
Location: Vancouver Canada
Contact:

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by Geoff Quickfall »

On both CAT 4 and CAT 6 I invoke the CAT function, then hold the R/S key down, (not press and release). The CAT stops and I can then SST and BST.

CAT 1, CAT 2 and CAT 3 only require a press and release.

I have CCD OS/X as one of my ROMS.

Geoff
Ángel Martin
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by Ángel Martin »

pcscote wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:38 am
GETKEY report the following codes:

Code: Select all

11 12 13 14 15 01
21 22 23 24 25 02
31 32 33 34 35 04
  41  42 43 -- 44
51  52  53  54 35
61  62  63  64 35
71  72  73  74 03
81  82  83  -- 84
If only 44 (CLX) and 84 (R/S) would be moved in to the left, and 03 (PRGM) moved up to be just below 04 (ALPHA) ...
Geoff Quickfall
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 10:44 pm
Location: Vancouver Canada
Contact:

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by Geoff Quickfall »

:D ( I like the way you think Angel)
User avatar
pcscote
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 12:12 pm
Location: Québec/Canada

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by pcscote »

Ángel Martin wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:48 am
If only 44 (CLX) and 84 (R/S) would be moved in to the left, and 03 (PRGM) moved up to be just below 04 (ALPHA) ...
Why not go the last step, be perfectly compatible on keycode, on programs expectation, on muscle memory and yes be asymetrical (SHIFT & ALPHA row).

GETKEY key codes: (my original expectation)

Code: Select all

11 12 13 14 15 01 -> ON
21 22 23 24 25 02 -> USR
31 32 33 34 35 03 -> PRGM
  41  42 43 44 04 -> ALPHA
51  52  53  54 05 -> UP    |  DSP
61  62  63  64 06 -> DOWN  |  UP
71  72  73  74 07 -> CST   |  DOWN
81  82  83  84 08 -> DSP   |  CST
[DM1x/DM1xL/DM41/DM41L/DM41X/DM42]
Ángel Martin
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: Problems with Catalog 4

Post by Ángel Martin »

pcscote wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:27 pm

Why not go the last step, be perfectly compatible on keycode, on programs expectation, on muscle memory and yes be asymmetrical (SHIFT & ALPHA row).

GETKEY key codes: (my original expectation)

Code: Select all

11 12 13 14 15 01 -> ON
21 22 23 24 25 02 -> USR
31 32 33 34 35 03 -> PRGM
  41  42 43 44 04 -> ALPHA
51  52  53  54 05 -> UP    |  DSP
61  62  63  64 06 -> DOWN  |  UP
71  72  73  74 07 -> CST   |  DOWN
81  82  83  84 08 -> DSP   |  CST
ALPHA an SHIFT in the same row has a nice and comfy feeling, that's the only exception I'd do but for the rest your expected arrangement was also my proposal. That was called "Concept-B" at the HHC19 poll.

Consider the rational below:

a)The important thing about muscle memory is that for existing 41C users this is a hindrance and causes trouble. Not just power users but to anyone owning both a DM-41X and the original machine (probably the majority of DM-41X owners)

b) The assumption that for new users the current layout is better (?) has no merit, precisely because they don't have muscle memory and thus will take in either arrangement.





So it is a fact vs. a (flawed) guess
Post Reply