no ROM no fun

Discussion about the new DM41X calculator
Amphitryon

no ROM no fun

Post by Amphitryon »

The platform is the engine, software its petrol, their combination is power. More ROMs give more power.
Alas, without tyres (= manuals) it won't move, It makes "brmm-brrrmmm" and that's it.
(Just a side note, what moves a car? The force from the engine, the tyres, the street, something else? Little hint, keep all the same but replace the road by ice. So in this allegory it also needs a user who knows to drive the bus.)

There are plenty of ROMs available here, the manuals are elsewhere. Those coming form HP are no problem, hp41.org and other collections offer them as scans for nothing. Most third party ROMs also come with some kind of manual (only about two dozen are undocumented up to now). However there is a ZIP containing 85 MOD files -- but not a single PDF. Why? For what reason? Just laziness? Or is it swissmicros principal of operation? We offer hardware, with firmware, how to use it -- ask Eisenhower.

On hp41.org I find a list showing 93 items from Ángel Martin. Alas only in few cases it is possible to match the ROM naming (or MOD containing the ROM) with an entry in the list. In addition there are less MODs in the ZIP than items in the list, or is the discrepancy even worse? Which collection is up to date? In the ZIP no file is older than Sept. 2019, in the majority those on hp41.org are much older. I would appreciate it if ROMs or MODs are kept together with the description PDF.

I know, the list is long and the days are short. But no job is done without informing the recipient. May be Ángel or those who praise so loudly his oeuvre are able to prepare at least a table showning MOD and where to find its PDF. Thank you.
BTW, this is not only to make his ROMs more useful, it is also some kind of respect for the original authors, not all routines in Ángel's ROMs are his own work.
bernouilli
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:01 am
Location: France

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by bernouilli »

Here you can find a list of all known modules for the hp41 :
http://www.hp-collection.org/41database.html

But there is no link for downloading the module nor the documentation.
DM15L - DM42 - DM41x
Amphitryon

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by Amphitryon »

bernouilli wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:22 am
Here you can find a list of all known modules for the hp41: [...]
Nice! Some more "brmm-brrrmmm" :)
But there is no link for downloading the module nor the documentation.
It is what it is.
Peet
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:01 am
Location: Germany

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by Peet »

Amphitryon wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:48 am
The platform is the engine, software its petrol, their combination is power. More ROMs give more power.
Beware of diesel in the petrol tank!

Coming from the HP41CV, I am not completely familiar with the extended functions and OS extensions of the "modern times".
Although I knew some of the functions of CCD-, Time- and X-Function-ROM, I did not own any of them. But with a card reader, printer and math module i was familiar with modules an CAT 2.

With the Collections from MoHPC and HP41.org you now have access to an incredible number of ROMs and programs. Even with instructions, you can hardly get an overview. Some modules are well documented, some bad, others not at all. Some modules are clones of others, others are outdated versions with different names. One af my biggest issues is to understand which ROMs are redundant and which are obsolete.

It seems that many functions of the legendary CCD-ROM have already been taken over by HP in the X-Functions and that many user ROMs (e.g. AM-OSX) also contain these functions. There are also many competing versions. Again, even with instructions, you can hardly get an overview.

So I look at the collection like a library or a shop, there are 1000 items but I only look at the few that seem to make sense to me.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
Amphitryon

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by Amphitryon »

Peet wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:28 am
So I look at the collection like a library or a shop, there are 1000 items but I only look at the few that seem to make sense to me.
The 1000 items remind me the saying about consulters: they know so many fantastic positions, satisfaction guaranteed, but thyself never have sex ;)
Similar with the plug-in ROMs, 'make sense' is something different if you just collect it or really use it. There are collectors (not all) unable to calculate.
My intention for the op is to trigger the ROM distributors to put some effort in those collector items to make them useful. In addition, it is quite ungentlemanly to copy software and distribute it without the accompanying description.

Well, reading my append befor I hit 'submit' I doubt if it makes sense. How may I expect a solution from those who are part of the problem :(
Last edited by Amphitryon on Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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akaTB
Posts: 547
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 1:56 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by akaTB »

Wow, not a day in and already complaining badly.
I'm sure someone will find everything you need, print it and send it to you.
Greetings,
    Massimo
ajcaton
-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold
rprosperi
Posts: 1023
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by rprosperi »

Amphitryon wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:09 am

Similar with the plug-in ROMs, 'make sense' is something different if you just collect it or really use it. There are collectors (no all) unable to calculate.
My intention for the op is to trigger the ROM distributors to put some effort in those collector items to make them useful. In addition, it is quite ungentlemanly to copy software and distribute it without the accompanying description.
The various modules in the curated collections you've found have been created over many years by fans and users, putting in lots of hard work and generosity, so that other users, like you, have the option of enjoying the benefits of exploring and using the modules they've found or purchased. Most often, the source is a module purchased either standalone or inserted in a machine purchased from eBay, or inherited from a family member, etc. and these rarely come with documentation which has been lost or discarded long before they got the item, after all it's been 35-40 years. Nevertheless, their inclination and efforts were to share what they acquired with other users, often after much work trying to locate original authors or manuals in online archives or other sources, but concluding, correctly in my view, that it's better to share something, even if incomplete, with the hope that someone may explore it and provide some answers, or that other resources may be found and shared in the future.

I can think of 2 possible solutions for the problems as you state them:

a. Simply discard the collections that you've found; as they're incomplete and seemingly useless to you, nothing is lost

b. Become part of the solution! Instead of whining about the lack of complete items, help to locate some of it and share it, both to pay back predecessors that have done so much work for you to date, but also for future fans, so that what they find when they come looking is more complete, and a bit more gentlemanly.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
Ángel Martin
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by Ángel Martin »

Amphitryon wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:48 am

On hp41.org I find a list showing 93 items from Ángel Martin. Alas only in few cases it is possible to match the ROM naming (or MOD containing the ROM) with an entry in the list. In addition there are less MODs in the ZIP than items in the list, or is the discrepancy even worse? Which collection is up to date? In the ZIP no file is older than Sept. 2019, in the majority those on hp41.org are much older. I would appreciate it if ROMs or MODs are kept together with the description PDF.
If this ticks you off so much then I suggest you take this up with that site's webmaster. Most of us just enjoy and are grateful for the information on the site.
Amphitryon wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:48 am
I know, the list is long and the days are short. But no job is done without informing the recipient. May be Ángel or those who praise so loudly his oeuvre are able to prepare at least a table showning MOD and where to find its PDF. Thank you.
BTW, this is not only to make his ROMs more useful, it is also some kind of respect for the original authors, not all routines in Ángel's ROMs are his own work.
What's your point exactly? Complaining that there's not documentation for everything or the disorganized (?) presentation of the site??

It pays off to do a small web searching. Most of my modules are well-documented here: http://www.systemyde.com/hp41/documents.html

Life is short, the ROM is full.
hth313
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:00 pm

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by hth313 »

Someone who wants to do research could dig into this and document the evolution of ROMs. For example, the CCD could be discussed in depth and how it has transformed into other single page modules, part of it went to the Advantage module and so forth.

You could study how unit conversions came about, how they work and where they are implemented.

In fact, multiple people could do this. You can have a Wiki, or write a pdf in some simple markup language and allow people to contribute to it on Github/lab or your choice. That why it could transform into basically a book. As long as there are some that like to take a serious attempt at it, I am sure people will chip in with additional knowledge.

It is a good project for someone inclined and would be a great asset to the community.

In reality, you will not need 500 modules, you will probably find 5-10 that you use and you may slowly explore that set over time. Sometimes you might be inclined to play with a particular module out of curiosity.

I agree with that the information may be a bit spread out and sometimes thin. To give some help with my modules, they are all on Github. All releases are there with documentation. If you want to, you can press the Watch button and set up that you want notifications whenever I make a release. You can also contribute to them if you like to. The only module that lacks documentation is boost41, but I am working on that, stay tuned.

If you like any of them, please press the star button, that way they may end up going to the Arctic Code Vault program the next time. ;)

References:
https://github.com/hth313/ladybug/releases
https://github.com/hth313/OS4/releases
https://github.com/hth313/boost41/releases
https://archiveprogram.github.com/
Amphitryon

Re: no ROM no fun

Post by Amphitryon »

Ángel Martin wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:44 pm
Amphitryon wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:48 am
I would appreciate it if ROMs or MODs are kept together with the description PDF.
If this ticks you off so much then I suggest you take this up with that site's webmaster.
It is not Warren's site, it is here @swissmicros where your ROMs are offered completely w/o manuals.
What's your point exactly? Complaining that there's not documentation for everything or the disorganized (?) presentation of the site??
Exactly this two points, you got it. ROMs here, for manuals (if any) look elsewhere, good luck.
It pays off to do a small web searching.
Is that really your goal, or part of the game, get users bussy searching for manuals? Happy Easter all year?
Most of my modules are well-documented here: ...
And the rest of it? Listen, I find my programs with changed global alpha labels on one of the MOD files on the site of swissmicros, on your request I did send it once to you together with the manual. What is your problem not to distribute this manual together with my programs? (You distribute it in public so I ask you also in public and not in PM.)
Life is short, the ROM is full.
Nice, tnx 4 the kind hint. Sounds as polite as 'buy, sell, or get out of the way.' Even less.
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