Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Discussion about the new DM41X calculator
Post Reply
HPMike
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: DFW, Texas

Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by HPMike »

I've encountered several cases where a topic is not explained in detail in the DM41X User Manual, and instead a reference is made either to an operation or command that is only explained in an HP document, or to an HP document itself. The assumption is made that the user already has these documents available, because they either already own the hardware with documentation or bought the MoHPC DVD set with those documents.

For example, I own two HP41CV calculators, but have never owned an HP41CX, so I don't have the manuals for that calculator. SwissMicros does list the HP41-CX Owner's Manual Volume 1 on its website, but does not list Volume 2, where the operation [SAVEP] is explained that is referenced in Section 6.2.4 Save RAW Program of the DM41X User Manual.

Another example is Section 3.1.2 Calculator Mode - SI, where printer mode flags are not explained, and instead will be referencing the HP 82160A HP-IL Module that many users, including myself may not possess. Interestingly, the DM41X is only physically compatible with the HP 82240A/B IR Printer, which uses the HP82242A IR Printer Module, so if anything it is the IR Printer Module Owner's Manual that should be referenced regarding this topic. Someone who owns an IR printer will most likely also own an IR Printer Module, but not necessarily an HP-IL Module. Heck, I also own an HP 82143A Printer, yet I do not own an HP-IL Module.

Also, it should be made clear in the DM41X User Manual, that it is emulating the HP 82162A Printer and NOT the HP 82242A/B Printer, such that the printer module needs to be unplugged anytime a program is executed that uses VIEW and AVIEW to pause output for display in the calculator when the IR Printer is not available.
DM15L, S/N 00548. DM42, SN: 00159. DM41X, SN: 00973.
Peet
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:01 am
Location: Germany

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by Peet »

I can understand that, I only had a CV and never owned a CX or the Time / X module. I found many manuals and documents (besides the MoHPC DVD which I bought in 2005) at www.hp41.org (their DVD content can/could be downloaded for free from this website)
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
User avatar
akaTB
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 1:56 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by akaTB »

You can find extended functions, time module, printer, etc. online here https://archived.hpcalc.org/greendyk/.
Greetings,
    Massimo
ajcaton
-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold
rprosperi
Posts: 1027
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by rprosperi »

SwissMicros is not going to provide core 41CX operational details in the User Maual, this is a basic premise and will not change. This information is readily available from a plethora of sources, including numerous websites, purchase from eBay or other online sources, local used-item shops, etc. This is one of the most widely produced calculators of all time, in production for more than 10 years, so there are plenty of sources to find these original manuals; some are free, some are cheap, none are expensive. The replies from users Peet and akaTB above provide free access to most of what you're seeking, though I recommend you purchase the MoHPC document set so that you have local PDF copies available at any time.

As for the 41X Printer support, it is not stated anywhere in the manual that the 41X is emulating the 82162A or 82242A printers or interfaces, this seems to be a conclusion you've reached somehow. It does correctly state the support is based on the 82143 printer (because it actually runs that rom) via the IR interface to the 82240A/B printer. The 41X manual specifically does not reference those two printer manuals because not all the features in those printers are supported.

Support for the MAN/TRACE/NORM modes, available on the 82143 (and therefore supported in the 41X) are described clearly in the 82160 manual, so the manual will (typo in the current version, to be corrected) reference that particular section.

We'll add a statement about the VIEW/AVIEW impacts, though to date, no one else has commented that this is unexpected or a problem.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
HPMike
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: DFW, Texas

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by HPMike »

rprosperi wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:39 pm
As for the 41X Printer support, it is not stated anywhere in the manual that the 41X is emulating the 82162A or 82242A printers or interfaces, this seems to be a conclusion you've reached somehow. It does correctly state the support is based on the 82143 printer (because it actually runs that rom) via the IR interface to the 82240A/B printer. The 41X manual specifically does not reference those two printer manuals because not all the features in those printers are supported.
OK, but the User Manual in Section 2.2 does state incorrectly that Owner's Handbook for the 82143A Printer should be seen for details about flags, and in fact makes no mention of flags 15 and 16 which control printer mode. It was you who currently shows the 82162A printer Owner's Manual as a reference for the flag settings, which you now plan to change to the 82160 IL Manual, which btw is a Quick Reference Card. The 82143A printer is NOT an IL printer, whereas the 82162A IS an IL printer. This is why I assumed the DM41X was emulating an 82162A printer, and I never said that it was emulating an 82242A/B printer.

As to your suggestion that used manuals are available from various sources, "never expensive," I browsed eBay for the HP 41CX Volume 2 Owner's Manual, and found one listed at $105, so I guess we must have a different idea of what is expensive. I do actually have all the MoHPC DVD's, so my commentary was no so much about my situation, as others who might not be so fortunate. Otherwise, how would I have know the the 82162A printer manual did not contain information regarding the printer mode setting flags.
DM15L, S/N 00548. DM42, SN: 00159. DM41X, SN: 00973.
Peet
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:01 am
Location: Germany

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by Peet »

rprosperi wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:39 pm
It does correctly state the support is based on the 82143 printer (because it actually runs that rom) via the IR interface to the 82240A/B printer.
...
Support for the MAN/TRACE/NORM modes, available on the 82143 (and therefore supported in the 41X) are described clearly in the 82160 manual, so the manual will (typo in the current version, to be corrected) reference that particular section.
Perhaps it will help some users if flags 15 and 16 on page 4 for the printer modes are explained.

i.e.:
MAN
Manual Print Mode (CF 15, CF 16)
TRA
Trace Print Mode (SF 15, CF 16)
NRM
Normal Print Mode (SF 16, CF 15)

or as a Prg-Example:
01 LBL "PRON"
02 SF 21
03 RTN
04 LBL "PROFF"
05 CF 21
06 RTN
07 LBL "MAN"
08 CF 15
09 CF 16
10 RTN
11 LBL "NORM"
12 CF 15
13 SF 16
14 RTN
15 LBL "TRACE"
16 CF 16
17 SF 15
18 END
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
HPMike
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: DFW, Texas

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by HPMike »

Peet wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:53 pm

01 LBL "PRON"
02 SF 21
03 RTN
04 LBL "PROFF"
05 CF 21
06 RTN
This won't work, because you also have to set or clear flag 55, which is a system flag that cannot be set or cleared by the user, only tested. If you have an IR Printer Module installed in your HP-41CV, first test flags 21 and 55 and they will return YES. Next XEQ [ALPHA][PRTOFF][ALPHA], test them and they will return NO. Turn your calculator off and then on again or XEQ [ALPHA][PRTON][ALPHA], test flags 21 and 55, and they will again return YES. While clearing flag 21 will suppress print functions such as PRX from executing within programs, it will not allow VIEW and AVIEW to function properly. For VIEW and AVIEW to stop program execution and display a result for viewing or recording by a user, flag 21 must be set and flag 55 must be clear. The only way to clear flag 55 on the DM41X is to unplug the Thermal Printer module, whereas on a HP-41C/CV/CX with an IR Printer module, you can XEQ PRTOFF or on a DM42 you can XEQ POFF. The DM41X emulates the HP 82143A thermal printer which physically plugs into the HP-41C calculator, and must be physically unplugged for flag 55 to be cleared. Even with it powered off, the calculator will detect it and set flag 55.
Last edited by HPMike on Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DM15L, S/N 00548. DM42, SN: 00159. DM41X, SN: 00973.
HPMike
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: DFW, Texas

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by HPMike »

Peet wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:53 pm

Perhaps it will help some users if flags 15 and 16 on page 4 for the printer modes are explained.

i.e.:
MAN
Manual Print Mode (CF 15, CF 16)
TRA
Trace Print Mode (SF 15, CF 16)
NRM
Normal Print Mode (SF 16, CF 15)
Yes, I've already mentioned that, and was told by Bob P. that they are just not willing to do this. It seems so simple, but I guess they don't want it to be easy for us. Instead, we are supposed to search around the internet for obscure documents. Nor are they willing to post Volume 2 of the HP-41X Owner's Manual on the SwissMicros website, even through they do have the HP-41C/CV Owner's Handbook posted. Go figure.
DM15L, S/N 00548. DM42, SN: 00159. DM41X, SN: 00973.
rprosperi
Posts: 1027
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by rprosperi »

HPMike wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:34 pm

OK, but the User Manual in Section 2.2 does state incorrectly that Owner's Handbook for the 82143A Printer should be seen for details about flags, and in fact makes no mention of flags 15 and 16 which control printer mode. It was you who currently shows the 82162A printer Owner's Manual as a reference for the flag settings, which you now plan to change to the 82160 IL Manual, which btw is a Quick Reference Card. The 82143A printer is NOT an IL printer, whereas the 82162A IS an IL printer. This is why I assumed the DM41X was emulating an 82162A printer, and I never said that it was emulating an 82242A/B printer.
The portions of the 82143 Manual which discuss flags all apply. The additional flags needed to control printer mode are not in that manual (they are not required on the 82143 because it had a switch) but are discussed in a later section where the printer status is explained, with a reference to (what will be corrected to) the 82160 HP-IL module, where these details are provided.

The 82160 is the HP-IL module for the HP-41C family, I don't know what you mean about this being a Quick Ref Card. Since HP-IL peripherals can be connected to many controller types, commands for controlling it's various features are not in the printer manual, they are in the manuals for the controllers that are used, in this case the HP-41 HP-IL module.

I recommend you wait for the next manual revision to see these changes, the corrections will resolve any remaining confusion.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
rprosperi
Posts: 1027
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: Topics that should be explained in the DM41X User Manual instead of an HP reference

Post by rprosperi »

HPMike wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:16 am
Yes, I've already mentioned that, and was told by Bob P. that they are just not willing to do this. It seems so simple, but I guess they don't want it to be easy for us. Instead, we are supposed to search around the internet for obscure documents. Nor are they willing to post Volume 2 of the HP-41X Owner's Manual on the SwissMicros website, even through they do have the HP-41C/CV Owner's Handbook posted. Go figure.
As has been explained, the User Manual for the 41X will only contain 41X-unique content, existing documentation abounds and there is no reason to duplicate it. Simply putting a table of Flag settings is less useful than reading the full manual section that will be referenced, to understand the context and subtleties, which you've correctly noted many times are important. So rather than duplicating those 2 complete pages, the manual will simply point to the original source.

Since you noted that you have the MoHPC document set, you should have all the manuals required, and there should be no need to search the internet.

That having been said, Volume 2 of the 41CX Owners Manual is also available online, just change 'Vol1' in the url to 'Vol2'.

This link was apparently lost in the transition to the new website, I'll ask Michael to add it back in, thanks for noting this omission.

Update: The link to Volume-2 has been added on the SwissMicros Technical Page.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
Post Reply