Request for feature: alternate font

Discussion about the new DM41X calculator
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millerjs
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by millerjs »

Peet wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:48 pm
"Your" font
- is smaller
- is less legible
- is pixelated (less clean)
- has not all HP41 characters (some synthetics missing)
- does not "provide the closest possible match with the original experience"
A few things:
1) DM42 font size can be changed, and could be made larger
2) Legibility is entirely subjective, personally I find the DM42 much easier to read (but this is what options are for, right?)
3) DM42 is more pixelated? How do you figure?
DM42vDM41X_Font-min.png
DM42vDM41X_Font-min.png (154.8 KiB) Viewed 301 times
Maybe we're using a different definition of the word "pixelated" but, personally, I can see the "pixels" of the 41 font much more clearly than the 42 font.

4) Missing characters can be added, what's the concern here?
5) If you want an "original experience", use an HP-41. No one here seems to be complaining about the DM41L font?

Regardless of all of this, there is absolutely zero solid argument what-so-ever for NOT making a DM42-style font available as an option to DM41X users.

Edit: Clarity
Last edited by millerjs on Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Walter
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by Walter »

millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
... there is absolutely zero solid argument what-so-ever for making a DM42-style font available as an option to DM41X users.
Is this what you wanted to write? Please read aloud.
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
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akaTB
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by akaTB »

millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
5) If you want an "original experience", use an HP-41.
Or this DM41X, why not?
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
No one here seems to be complaining about the DM41L font?
I, for one, don't like it. As the rest of that machine.
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
Regardless of all of this, there is absolutely zero solid argument what-so-ever for making a DM42-style font available as an option to DM41X users.
I'm with you on this one.
Greetings,
    Massimo
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Peet
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by Peet »

millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
1) DM42 font size can be changed, and could be made larger
No, the Size you showed is the largest for this font on the DM42 and two steps smaller as the DM41X font.
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
2) Legibility is entirely subjective, personally I find the DM42 much easier to read (but this is what options are for, right?)
No, ask an optician and do an eye test. The DM41X font allows me to differentiate all Numbers without reading glasses, the DM42 doesn't.

Funfact: Even in 2021 most laser gauges or medical thermometers, even head-up displays in cars or fighter jets use segment fonts (and probably not because they are difficult to read).
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
3) DM42 is more pixelated? How do you figure?
The resolution of the Display is not high enough to show e.g. clear curves. You can see it easy on the o or e. The segment font looks raser-sharp.
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
4) Missing characters can be added, what's the concern here?
Because someone has to create this characters, see posting #2 and #5.
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
5) If you want an "original experience", use an HP-41.
See #2, this was one important criteria by building this calculator (and for me to buying it).
BTW If there is a new HP41CV with a USB interface at an acceptable price, I would like to use it. The currently best choice as a replacement is a DM41X.
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
No one here seems to be complaining about the DM41L font?
I did the biggest complaining: complete lack of interest. On the other hand the DM41X I bought immediately. Next to the terrible keyboard layout this was the second important reason that I was not slightly be interesstet in the DM41(L).
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
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millerjs
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by millerjs »

Walter wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:14 pm
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
... there is absolutely zero solid argument what-so-ever for making a DM42-style font available as an option to DM41X users.
Is this what you wanted to write? Please read aloud.
No, this is an unfortunate typo, but hopefully someone reading the rest of my post would understand that. Additionally, while it can be beneficial to proofread by reading aloud, not all of us have that as an option all the time - take this into consideration.

As for the rest of you responding to what I've said - I'm done with this particular exchange. The stubbornness and unwillingness to accept the opinions of others is impressive, and thoroughly disheartening in such a community.

If you choose to post in this thread again, try and remember that no one is proposing that anything be taken away from you.
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Walter
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by Walter »

millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:14 pm
Walter wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:14 pm
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
... there is absolutely zero solid argument what-so-ever for making a DM42-style font available as an option to DM41X users.
Is this what you wanted to write? Please read aloud.
No, this is an unfortunate typo, but hopefully someone reading the rest of my post would understand that. Additionally, while it can be beneficial to proofread by reading aloud, not all of us have that as an option all the time - take this into consideration.
Well, someone reading the rest of your post had his doubts. But you never know, so I asked...
PLEASE proofread your posts (aloud or not is your choice) else people might take what you wrote for what you meant.
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:14 pm
As for the rest of you responding to what I've said - I'm done with this particular exchange. The stubbornness and unwillingness to accept the opinions of others is impressive, and thoroughly disheartening in such a community.
I concur assessing our friends of the DM41X being a bit stubborn. Though that's no reason to surrender IMO. If you bought a 41X, continue trying assiduously. Else focus on other stuff. Just my recommendation, 20m€ worth or less.
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
Peet
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by Peet »

millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:14 pm
The stubbornness and unwillingness to accept the opinions of others is impressive, and thoroughly disheartening in such a community.
I don't see real voices against an option in this thread, but bad talk of the original font does not help to get support from the fans of the classic.
Try "the new DM42 font may be a good alternate font" istead of "the DM42 font is a better and more suitable font" .
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
vgoudreault
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by vgoudreault »

Peet wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm

No, the Size you showed is the largest for this font on the DM42 and two steps smaller as the DM41X font.
So what you want is a LARGER font. How about restricting your focus on the real issue here?
Peet wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm

No, ask an optician and do an eye test. The DM41X font allows me to differentiate all Numbers without reading glasses, the DM42 doesn't.

Funfact: Even in 2021 most laser gauges or medical thermometers, even head-up displays in cars or fighter jets use segment fonts (and probably not because they are difficult to read).
Kindly indicate which of the following numbers ( 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ) is causing you problems, to the point of confusing them, in the DM42 largest font. I am genuinely curious.
If distinguishing them is really an issue, how do you deal with the fact that the captions around and on the keys are MUCH smaller, and not "segmented" (though admittedly, they are razor sharp since they are silk screened)? And what is your point in looking at those without reading glasses? Are you so vain as to refuse to wear glasses? I am 7 years your senior, and ever since my hypermetropic, 20/15 vision decided to go presbytic a decade and a half ago, had to start wearing glasses. I am sure the experience is shared by many, but instead of making a fuss, we wear the darn glasses. Act you age.

And as far as laser gauges, medical thermometers and head-up displays (in cars*) are concerned, they will get by with segment displays because a 7 segment numeric element is cheaper and simpler to control than a 35 dots matrix, let alone the 260 dots rectangular area dedicated to one character at the current largest font setting on the DM42, and that they never have to display anything but a very restricted set of characters.

*For aircraft, the HUD uses either a raster projection display, or a vector one, and a collimating system so that focus is pushed to infinity. Ultimately, they are still pixelized, as the following high resolution picture of an aircraft HUD shows (lines that are not perfectly horizontal or vertical will show a jagged edge). Any claim of apparent smoothness is due to anti-aliasing.

https://www.aopa.org/-/media/Images/AOP ... et_HUD.jpg
Peet wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm

The resolution of the Display is not high enough to show e.g. clear curves. You can see it easy on the o or e. The segment font looks raser-sharp.
But the DM41X font is STILL going to NOT be 'segment'. It is a pixelized approximation of what the original segments looked like. You gain NOTHING in terms of sharpness.

(...)
Peet wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
5) If you want an "original experience", use an HP-41.
See #2, this was one important criteria by building this calculator (and for me to buying it).
BTW If there is a new HP41CV with a USB interface at an acceptable price, I would like to use it. The currently best choice as a replacement is a DM41X.
Well, get yourself one of these then (but your will need deep pockets):
https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/epag ... cts/HP41CL

Of course, it only has a serial interface, so one would need additional hardware to interface with an USB; but hey, the HP-41 predates the invention of USB by almost two decades anyway, so you would still not get it either.

Or is your definition of "acceptable price" always going to be 200€ less than whatever is out there?

Peet wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm
millerjs wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:00 pm
No one here seems to be complaining about the DM41L font?
I did the biggest complaining: complete lack of interest. On the other hand the DM41X I bought immediately. Next to the terrible keyboard layout this was the second important reason that I was not slightly be interesstet in the DM41(L).
Complaining about what? The DM41L font? That calculator was introduced in 2015; and you complained when? After it was designed, put in production and offered? What were you expecting, that Swiss Micro would be able to track down the original maker of the HP-41 display (which most likely had been out of production since the HP-41 line was discontinued in 1990 anyway) and source a new batch, just because you refuse to wear your glasses?
Peet
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by Peet »

@vgoudreault
Your whole post seems to be centered on one person rather than the topic. To answer to this post is nearly impossible, because to often you don't argue with fact than with personal statements and unobjective interpretations. e.g.

>So what you want is a LARGER font. How about restricting your focus on the real issue here?
I never asked for a larger font, I mentioned the fact, that the maximum size of the new DM42 font is smaller! That's a huge difference.

> But the DM41X font is STILL going to NOT be 'segment'. It is a pixelized approximation of what the original segments looked like.
Please don't play smart ass. I used the Term "simulating the original segment font" before, but I think everyone knows what I mean if I only write "segment font" or "HP41 font". And the readability on the DM41X is nearly identical to the HP41.

>Well, get yourself one of these then (but your will need deep pockets)
Why should I buy a 41CL (btw, we have different ideas about "new")? I'm not the one who complains about the DM41X all the time, I like the DM41X.

But with the last paragraph you took the cake. I said "that I was not slightly be interesstet in the DM41(L)" and NO, not because I refused to wear my glasses!
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(+), HP35S, DM41X, DM42
rprosperi
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Re: Request for feature: alternate font

Post by rprosperi »

Guys... don't take this stuff so seriously, there is no need for these discussions to get personal; nothing is gained and most readers are turned-off and don't like the back-and-forth jabs.

Folks should be free to say "I wish the product had this or could do that, and then I would like it better or buy another one, etc." without fearing someone will tell him he's crazy for wishing such a thing. Conversely, someone that disagrees with a suggestion should feel free to ask "Why would you want such a thing, it makes no sense to me, at least for the way I use it?" without expecting to be jumped for daring to ask why?

As for 41X fonts, this is neither a new topic, nor one likely to change things. The 41X was envisioned from the beginning to try to provide as close to genuine 41X appearance and behavior as possible on the DM42 platform. The result seems to have been very well received with overwhelming praise for the 41 fonts, painstakingly reproduced (in 4 sizes!) due to David's skills. It's also not surprising that there are also a few owners/potential customers that either did not own a 41 and so don't have the same feelings of familiarity/fondness and/or due to vision limitations think DM42 style fonts could be better, this was expected. From the feedback I'd say there are far fewer folks asking for this than expected back when the commitment was made to go with only authentic fonts.

All that said, I think it would indeed be interesting to know what a 41 emulator "feels like" if using more standard fonts, as all devices and emulators I've used extensively retain the original font style; it has become ingrained in the way one uses a 41. But said curiosity does not justify the surprisingly large amount of time needed to create, verify and test a new font.

So, please feel free to continue to debate such topics, but please do so with respect and consideration of other members here. Healthy discussions have previously led to new and changed features, and this is the best way to let SM know what you are thinking, but this specific feature change is very unlikely to change, at least for the foreseeable future.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
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