[C47] FINancial menu

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
User avatar
Walter
Posts: 3070
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 11:13 am
Location: On a mission close to DRS, Germany

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by Walter »

Percent is a ratio always IMHO :?
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
rprosperi
Posts: 1698
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by rprosperi »

Another view: %T has been used consistently on HP machines since the 70's, without confusion. Despite the admittedly feasible confusion by someone coming to use this machine with absolutely no background/experience using one or more of the many HP machines which use %T, I think retaining a widely-used and well-understood function name makes FAR more sense than considering a new name, which will undoubtedly lead to two types of confusion by very nearly all C47 users:

a. Where the heck is %T?
b. What is this new %TOTAL function?

In short, why change the name of a widely-used, well-understood and familiar name? There is no advantage at all, and these obvious disadvantages?

ENTER could also be renamed to TERMINATE ENTRY, possibly shortened to TENT, as this is a more accurate name, but it sure wouldn't make C47 better in any way.

Improve the things that are problems, but changing things that aren't is only looking for trouble IMHO.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by Jaymos »

Pyjam wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:07 pm
My preference is for [Ratio%] to replace [%T]. It follows the same logic as [Δ%] for the difference expressed as a percentage.

Regarding the new function, I think [%Σx, Δ%x̄] is too long, but at least it is very explicit and I don't have a better idea.

There is room above [TVM] for a future [BOND] menu but I have no experience with this topic.
I think F3/F4 need to swap to have the same sequence as on f and g [RCL].

The additional stats functions in the FIN menu are compartmentalized in the North-West corner, which is OK. The stats entry section on the F1 column feels the same as in STAT and n is a welcome aid (I added n to the STAT page too as an essential entry aid).

Bob made a good point on %T. I would say stick with the devil you know.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Pyjam
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:01 pm
Location: France

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by Pyjam »

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:54 pm
I think F3/F4 need to swap to have the same sequence as on f and g [RCL].
Yes, provided that the entire columns are swapped.
Also, Σx divided by n gives x̄. So it makes perfect sense.

  Optimot : The ⌥ keyboard layout optimized for French and English (ŵïþ ʃʉŋ 𝕂åʁɒꝃțɛɹṩ).
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: [C47] FINancia3l menu

Post by Jaymos »

Pyjam wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:40 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:54 pm
I think F3/F4 need to swap to have the same sequence as on f and g [RCL].
Yes, provided that the entire columns are swapped.
Also, Σx divided by n gives x̄. So it makes perfect sense.
Further to the devilish %T higher up in the thread, despite Bob's point, I do agree that %T should have been something else like [%x:y] or [%ratio] or even [100x:y] because %T makes no sense unless (1) you are first adding up a list of numbers then checking the percentage to the Total so obtained and (2) you only have 24 x 10^-6 m² to fit a label to a button. As said - I'm willing to park this one (after all it is only 6 presses: [x<>y] / 100 ×) unless there is real support to change the biased %T to something sensible. Either way, the doc entry should reflect it accordingly.

My distilled understanding of your request, bearing in mind the roll-back of names:

.
Clipboard01fin.png
Clipboard01fin.png (85.96 KiB) Viewed 826 times
.

Updating of doc: "C47 Menu FIN page 1.pdf":

Name: Full name : Description

[%] : Percentage : x Percent of y, result as Real

[Δ%] : Delta percent : Delta from y to x as percentage. Result as percentage

[%T] : x to y as percentage a.k.a. %Total: x to y expressed as a percentage a.k.a. % Total, i.e. ratio of x to total (y), result as percentage

[%Σ] : Percentage of Σx : Percentage of x to Σx. Variant of %T. Result as percentage.

[Δ%x̄] : Delta percentage to mean : Delta from x̄ to x, as percentage. Result as percentage.

[%Σ, Δ%x̄] : Percentage of Σx and Delta percentage to mean : Percentage of x to Σx and Delta percentage to mean

Example of the new function: [CLΣ] 1 [Σ+] 2 [Σ+] 3 [Σ+] 1 [Δ%x̄] results in -50%.

Example of the new function: [CLΣ] 1 [Σ+] 2 [Σ+] 3 [Σ+] 1 [%Σ, Δ%x̄] results in Y=16.67%, X=-50%

Right?

Please check every word of the descriptions and examples, as I may have screwed it up.

I will implement only once there is agreement and the doc is updated and returned to me from Robbert.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Pyjam
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:01 pm
Location: France

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by Pyjam »

From my point of view, [%x:y] is perfectly clear and it's a shame to perpetuate a bad decision from 50 years ago. It's the same reason we have to put up with staggered keyboards to allow for the hammer shanks that hit the ink ribbon. I agree that %T is not as horrible though.
With %T, one might even think that this function requires only one argument instead of two.
But I've made my point enough on this issue and it's up to you to decide.

I validate the composition of the menu and the descriptions.

Thank you very much for having taken my request into consideration. 🙂

  Optimot : The ⌥ keyboard layout optimized for French and English (ŵïþ ʃʉŋ 𝕂åʁɒꝃțɛɹṩ).
rprosperi
Posts: 1698
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by rprosperi »

Let me add some comments to further clarify my comments above.

I am not dead set and/or fighting against changing the name of %T to something else, I was really simply trying to express the view that changing something that has been long-established and is widely recognized needs to be justified, as the new name either being superior in some way, or correcting a problem or even misconception, even if long-established.

While I don't disagree that the original name for this function might have been better chosen, (total of what?) history is what it is, despite our neither understanding or approving why that was selected.

To my eye, the proposed [%x:y] will not be more clear or intuitive to a new user. It appears more 'complicated' due to the new visual element of a colon in the middle of the name, not used elsewhere on the keyboard (and probably not in menus, though I've lost track and am not sure).

But the over-riding and pivotal point in my mind is simpler still. Lots of (possibly more financial-oriented?) HP users that use %T often (I am one, there are other readers here as well) will expect it to be in C47 with the same name, just as [%Σ] and [ Δ%x̄], etc. are, along with nearly every function that was carried over from historic machines unchanged.

Ultimately though, this is, exactly as Pyjam noted at the beginning, just a picky little nit.

Whatever this ends up being named, I'll learn to find and use it, as I have with every machine since finding it.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 1633
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by Jaymos »

Thanks Bob for the sensible comment.

It remains true about what the fin-types may expect. Although on our scientist-developers' back-Bunsen-burners, the FIN menu was made to provide function to the fin-types and in fact we have recently had internal discussions to add some advanced functions.

As said though, FIN is/was not a priority, but let this little exercise be a lesson - if you want something badly, talk, do a menu layout, and write a spec. If we know what to code, we may well do it.

I literally today read the related sections in 12C and 38C manuals to learn why they even referred to TOTAL, i.e. after adding a list of values to a total, checking individual contribution percentages to that sum. Fair.

That brought me to the eye-opening point that C47 (and *43) need no %T as it has a matrixes for STAT, and Walter included %Σ and Pyjam requested some sensible additions. So instead of manually adding up a total, use Σ+ to generate the list, and use %Σ instead of %T. That would be the legitimate upgrade path for %T and you can even copy the entered data to file for later retrieval. Now, you may say but you want to use %T for something else, well, which then supports %x:y and not %T.

I do understand the need to (sometimes) keep with the idiosyncrasies of the past. It may well be too much ( ;-) ) for command which had been a misnomer for almost 50 years.

So for now I'll keep to my point of parking it until we should hear a chorus in the sky wanting a [%x:y] which does exactly what its name says. ;-) In addition, there are possible options such as changing it in the menu but keeping the old command in the CATALOG in parallel so it can be assigned and programmed.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
BruceH
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 2:39 am

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by BruceH »

rprosperi wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:46 pm
While I don't disagree that the original name for this function might have been better chosen, (total of what?) history is what it is, despite our neither understanding or approving why that was selected.
HP originally used the term %∑ which first appeared in the HP-22 and later changed to %T with the release of the HP-38E. The HP17Bii calls it %TOTL and they changed the name again with the HP-20B and HP-30B where it's somewhat clumsily called "Part % Tot". So the name is not set in stone and could be changed again if we can come up with a better one.

Obviously the 12C used %T - and even promoted it to a primary key rather than shifted - so it's now become the de facto name for the function.
User avatar
akaTB
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 1:56 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

Re: [C47] FINancial menu

Post by akaTB »

BruceH wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:24 am
rprosperi wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:46 pm
While I don't disagree that the original name for this function might have been better chosen, (total of what?) history is what it is, despite our neither understanding or approving why that was selected.
HP originally used the term %∑ which first appeared in the HP-22 and later changed to %T with the release of the HP-38E. The HP17Bii calls it %TOTL and they changed the name again with the HP-20B and HP-30B where it's somewhat clumsily called "Part % Tot". So the name is not set in stone and could be changed again if we can come up with a better one.

Obviously the 12C used %T - and even promoted it to a primary key rather than shifted - so it's now become the de facto name for the function.
%T was a primary key on the 37E already, and %∑ on the 92.
Greetings,
    Massimo
ajcaton
-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold
Post Reply