C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

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H2X
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by H2X »

Pyjam wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 10:21 am
No problem for me.
I suggest you also try a thin space (Unicode: U+2009), but I don’t think the current font has a thin space.
I remember your suggesting it. I can't make promises, but if different space fonts are offered, and one is chosen as grouping symbol, it makes sense IMO to reuse the same font for the fractional part.

Otherwise (e.g. if comma is chosen), a default space font should be chosen at our discretion. The reason being that in this case, grouping is deemed a matter of readability and dealt with as an accessibility issue.
Last edited by H2X on Wed May 17, 2023 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Walter
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by Walter »

Pyjam wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 10:21 am
No problem for me.
I suggest you also try a thin space (Unicode: U+2009), but I don’t think the current font has a thin space.
Usually monospaced fonts don’t have it.
The font designed for the WP43 years ago features thin spaces as well.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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Jaymos
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by Jaymos »

Pyjam wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 10:21 am
No problem for me.
I suggest you also try a thin space (Unicode: U+2009), but I don’t think the current font has a thin space.
Usually monospaced fonts don’t have it.
I don't plan to implement different space sizes. The current one is sufficient.

BTW, also as W confirmed, we do have various width spaces, but it is a matter of finding a balance between a good set of suitable options while at the same time preventing running away with options.

Make no mistake - this simple request and my offering of a solution has already eaten at least 50 man.hours in getting the spec together not even starting the coding yet; with our representative ;-) asking leading questions here. It is not trivial to do, neither did we go into it thinking it is, but it is an important aspect to let the tool fit the user.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Pyjam
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by Pyjam »

You’re right. In addition, I don’t think it would look good if all characters are not aligned.

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BigEd
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by BigEd »

If I may just chip in, the commonest form seen in, for example, tables of digits of pi and e, is grouping by fives of the fractional digits. I've never seen grouping by threes (and was mildly surprised to see it in the simulator.)
Bill K. - USA
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by Bill K. - USA »

I'm sorry this request is eating up so much time: it was never my intention to seek so many options. But I thank all of you for investigating the possibilities!

Just to reiterate, the two formats I'm most interested in are these:
123,456,789.000000001
123456789.000000001

H2X brought up two other formats:
123,456,789.000,000,001
123,456,789.000 000 001
And he wrote, "I am currently thinking that this could be narrowed down to enabling or disabling grouping the fractional part using space as symbol, regardless of the symbol chosen for the integer part."

Since you asked, here is my answer. Although I don't see me using either format that often, I do prefer the former over the latter and let me explain why:

I like using Fix4, and I understand the appeal of the current Gap3 setting with the spaces, but most often my numbers come out looking like this:
12.345 6
That gap, to my eyes, breaks the number into two different entities. When I see the above, my mind automatically interprets it as the below:
12.345
6

But this:
12.345,6
is better to my way of seeing. Why? Because the comma visually ties the digits to each other. To me, space indicates separate values, and always has: we're talking decades of usage, both with how I write numbers in a row and with how I see them written in a row. That's why I think the idea of a thinner space option is intriguing, one where the groupings could still be seen, but close enough that my eyes wouldn't automatically dissect them into two separate values:
1 234.567 8
1 234.567 8
12 346 678.901 234 5
12 345 678.901 234 5
(However if I can put the C47 into the first format at the top of this post, I don't see me using the blank gap option, so my liking of the narrow space option is a very low priority issue. If there were a narrower space option, I would probably try it out a while, just to see if I could adapt to it.)

Now, stepping back and seeing the big picture: the vast majority of the time, when looking at a computational result, I only care about the first 3 or 4 significant digits. In Fix4 (my preferred setting), if that number is like this:
1234XX.XXXX
I want some help knowing quickly where the thousand comma is:
123,4XX.XXXX
This would instantly tell me what I want to know without my having to count digits. (I have double vision, so counting things that're close together takes extra effort.)
And if the number is like this:
0.0123
that's what I'd like to see, not:
0.012 3

Yet the current options of the C47 force me, when in Fix 4, to have either this
123 4XX.XXX X
0.012 3
or this
1234XX.XXXX
0.0123
With the first set, both values are hard for me to process, but especially the second value; with the second set, the first value is hard for me to process. This is the driving reason behind my original request. If I can get 12,345.6789 (the HP-15C and HP Prime method) then I'll be happy, and whatever other options you do or don't offer won't really affect me. (And, to be clear, I'll only use the 999 and 1,000 setting; never the 9999 and 10,000 setting.)
Bill K. - USA
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by Bill K. - USA »

Walter wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 6:48 am
Bill K. - USA wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 3:29 am
pauli wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 11:54 pm
Surprising, to me at least, was that the WP 34S did gather some kind of following in China.
That's cool!

(And of course, if people in countries with other "gapping" rules wish to request support for those, I certainly have no objections.)
Very generous attitude indeed. About 3 000 000 000 people should be grateful, shouldn't they?
I believe you've misunderstood me. I realize every change incorporated into the calculator design requires a good deal of thought and programming. Up-thread, I requested a single additional option: I was not requesting that the C47 support every display option imaginable. I don't have a problem with the C47 offering additional options, but I do know that every change takes work. Before the C47 development team expends effort incorporating display formats beyond what's currently available, I can see them wanting people to express exactly what additional options are desired, so that if it's done, it can be done correctly and so they'll know that at least somebody will be using the feature.

Please don't read my comment as slighting nationalities different from my own. I go out of my way not to be offensive, so I ask people not to go out of their way to find offense.
BruceH
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by BruceH »

Bill K. - USA wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 4:47 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 4:07 pm
Yes, I am leaving out the Indian System on purpose due to my (our) ignorance of it and the probability of me (us) getting it wrong. Unless there is both 1. a demand shown and 2. an Indian native person with math/engineering credentials driving the requirement (as Bill, yourself and others are doing for the system under consideration), it will not be considered.
I agree with your viewpoint.

The calculator uses English language on the faceplate, and the documentation is in English, so that in itself creates an expectation as to who the primary customers will be (people who have some facility with English). There are other systems of numerical notation--Indian (groupings of three and two) and traditional Chinese (groupings of four)--but users wanting those options probably will not constitute a sizable percentage of the expected customer base. And without a native practitioner to guide us, we're apt to get it wrong.
In that case it should definitely include the Indian numbering system since English is an official language in India and there are at least 100m Indians who speak English as a second language.

Indian numbering is widely used for reporting figures in the press and on the news - typically for sums of money. For technical and scientific work they use the international system. There's an explanation of how it works here https://byjus.com/maths/numeral-system/.
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Jaymos
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by Jaymos »

BruceH wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 11:35 pm
Bill K. - USA wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 4:47 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 4:07 pm
Yes, I am leaving out the Indian System on purpose due to my (our) ignorance of it and the probability of me (us) getting it wrong. Unless there is both 1. a demand shown and 2. an Indian native person with math/engineering credentials driving the requirement (as Bill, yourself and others are doing for the system under consideration), it will not be considered.
I agree with your viewpoint.

The calculator uses English language on the faceplate, and the documentation is in English, so that in itself creates an expectation as to who the primary customers will be (people who have some facility with English). There are other systems of numerical notation--Indian (groupings of three and two) and traditional Chinese (groupings of four)--but users wanting those options probably will not constitute a sizable percentage of the expected customer base. And without a native practitioner to guide us, we're apt to get it wrong.
In that case it should definitely include the Indian numbering system since English is an official language in India and there are at least 100m Indians who speak English as a second language.

Indian numbering is widely used for reporting figures in the press and on the news - typically for sums of money. For technical and scientific work they use the international system. There's an explanation of how it works here https://byjus.com/maths/numeral-system/.
Maybe so, but not today. The bulk of my requirement is still outstanding.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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pauli
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Re: C47 Classic single shift, replaces C43 on DM42

Post by pauli »

But if somebody were to volunteer and implement Indian numbering format, the marge request would definitely be considered.
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