C43/C47 UI and other proposals

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
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Jaymos
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C43/C47 UI and other proposals

Post by Jaymos »

The topic from Burkhard is continued here from C43 bug reports, responding on a request to have longpress activated for the whole keyboard of the C43.
burkhard wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:31 pm
I do wonder if that implemented design is wholly optimum, though. Wouldn't it be better for long-press function cycling to simply either fully work or fully not work depending solely on the base key? So. I can understand on the digit keys (plus CHS & EE) it doesn't work at all, but the reason it doesn't work is more because they are digit keys rather than because many (but not all) happen to carry menus on the shifts.
We have previously looked at allowing the other keys as well, of course, as it would be logical. However, let's look at them:

CHS: Can arguably be allowed to longpress.
BKSPC: No. Already has a special functions DROP and CLRSTK which will interfere.
Up/Dn: No: Interferes with BST/SST
0-9 . EEX, R/S: No: Interferes with direct buffer entry.
f/g: No. Longpress already cycles between f, g, HOME.
EXIT: No. Already has special longpress functions CLRMOD and MyMenu on it, and we are targeting it for possibly some more.
/ x - +: No. Interferes with the immediate action at the end of number entry.

So of the complete list, CHS can (arguably) be added. I will discuss it internally for possible inclusion.
burkhard wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:31 pm
In the case of ENTER, since the long-press works for the f-function and NOP, I'd personally have it work for the g-function as well (regardless of it being a menu).
Longpress ENTER can arguably work despite it being a menu CPX. I will discuss it internally for possible inclusion.
burkhard wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:31 pm
Long-press functionality should either apply (fully work) or not. "Half-works" (or ⅔ works in this case) adds a tiny wee bit of potential confusion. It's of course a very minor point, though, and one that won't trip anyone up for too long. So, no great complaint, just a very slight inelegancy.
Standardization is not possible due to the immediate actions which are more desired than shortcuts, so unfortunately this is a half measure which cannot be extended to the rest of the keys without compromising the main function of the keys.
Last edited by Jaymos on Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
burkhard
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by burkhard »

Sounds fine, Jaco. I assume you guys probably considered all the pros/cons from different angles, but I figured I'd ask.

Actually, one thing you mention made me think of something. You indicate above that CLRMOD exists on the EXIT key. What does this do? I've seen it before, but couldn't find its functionality described anywhere. It's not in Walter's OM or ReM, so I assume it's C43-specific, but it doesn't seem to be in those docs either, at least not those I have. I assume it's been added since the "V049A differences" document (which bears an April 2020 date).

Is there a single "dictionary" of commands, particularly those specific to C43? There were a couple of others I couldn't figure out as well. I realize keeping fancy documents with lots of screen captures and art up-to-date is usually not practical for a project in active flux. But perhaps there is already a simple Excel sortable-column spreadsheet maintained or even a *.csv with commands listed alphabetically and a sentence or so on what each does. If not, no worries. Just checking in case something is out there I missed.

Thanks!
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rudi
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by rudi »

I agree with burkhard, that it would be convenient to be able to turn the menu cycling off or perhaps even slow down the cycle time.
I occationally execute the first shifted function, on my device, it doesnt take many tenths of seconds from pressing a menu key till it starts cycling.

PS: I did offcourse search the manuals, but couldn't find any thing about it. (searched- not a complete read)
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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RJvM
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by RJvM »

burkhard wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:43 pm
Is there a single "dictionary" of commands, particularly those specific to C43? There were a couple of others I couldn't figure out as well. I realize keeping fancy documents with lots of screen captures and art up-to-date is usually not practical for a project in active flux. But perhaps there is already a simple Excel sortable-column spreadsheet maintained or even a *.csv with commands listed alphabetically and a sentence or so on what each does. If not, no worries. Just checking in case something is out there I missed.
I joined the C43 project in september to work on exactly this, a set of documentation to describe everything the C43 does, where the functions are, what the menus mean and do, as well as some tutorials on advanced functionality.

A dictionary is precisely what I am currently working on, the plan is to publish a first version in a while. You may already have seen some of the work appear in the Allschwil C43 flyer and the C43 Keyboard Layout (including hidden key functions). These have been included in some recent releases.

Originally I intended to produce what you could call "Addenda" to the OM and RM manuals, but we have decided to produce self contained reference documentation of our own. This work is far from finished, but progressing nicely.

The idea is to open source the documentation and invite the help of the community to improve it, eventually.

To answer the question on "CLRMOD" here is the current short description of the function from my "dictionary", for the set of functions surrounding the EXIT key (81):

Code: Select all

81,5; CLRMOD (long); Function; Hidden; Clear all menus, entry modes and base
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
burkhard
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by burkhard »

RJvM wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:19 am
burkhard wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:43 pm
Is there a single "dictionary" of commands, particularly those specific to C43? There were a couple of others I couldn't figure out as well. I realize keeping fancy documents with lots of screen captures and art up-to-date is usually not practical for a project in active flux. But perhaps there is already a simple Excel sortable-column spreadsheet maintained or even a *.csv with commands listed alphabetically and a sentence or so on what each does. If not, no worries. Just checking in case something is out there I missed.
I joined the C43 project in september to work on exactly this, a set of documentation to describe everything the C43 does, where the functions are, what the menus mean and do, as well as some tutorials on advanced functionality.

A dictionary is precisely what I am currently working on, the plan is to publish a first version in a while.
<SNIPPED>
This would be great, thank you! Please let us know if there are shared documents you need help on. In my view, eventually having standalone C43 documents are indeed desirable—I can attest it is difficult for a brand new user to juggle the WP43 manuals and sizeable "C43 Differences" documents. There's a whole lot of work generating and keeping polished documents current, though! Walter's WP43 examples are awe-inspiring.

For shorter term, it would be great if even a much less ambitious low-frills command (and maybe menu) dictionary were updated and included in every release package. The single line you provided for CLRMOD was in itself quite helpful, for example. If I can help review / proofread / contribute, please advise. It sounds like you are on the right path, though!
burkhard
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by burkhard »

rudi wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:39 am
I agree with burkhard, that it would be convenient to be able to turn the menu cycling off or perhaps even slow down the cycle time.
I occationally execute the first shifted function, on my device, it doesnt take many tenths of seconds from pressing a menu key till it starts cycling.
I didn't myself express this need, but I don't have a particular objection.
Undoubtedly, extra control knobs are extra work for the busy developers, though, so I'm sure it comes down to triage... ;)
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RJvM
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by RJvM »

burkhard wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:39 pm
Please let us know if there are shared documents you need help on. In my view, eventually having standalone C43 documents are indeed desirable—I can attest it is difficult for a brand new user to juggle the WP43 manuals and sizeable "C43 Differences" documents. There's a whole lot of work generating and keeping polished documents current, though! Walter's WP43 examples are awe-inspiring.

For shorter term, it would be great if even a much less ambitious low-frills command (and maybe menu) dictionary were updated and included in every release package. The single line you provided for CLRMOD was in itself quite helpful, for example. If I can help review / proofread / contribute, please advise. It sounds like you are on the right path, though!
Thanks! I will make a note of this, thanks for offering your help, much appreciated.
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
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rudi
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by rudi »

burkhard wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:43 pm
rudi wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:39 am
I agree with burkhard, that it would be convenient to be able to turn the menu cycling off or perhaps even slow down the cycle time.
I occationally execute the first shifted function, on my device, it doesnt take many tenths of seconds from pressing a menu key till it starts cycling.
I didn't myself express this need, but I don't have a particular objection.
Undoubtedly, extra control knobs are extra work for the busy developers, though, so I'm sure it comes down to triage... ;)
Sorry - I misread your post :oops:
But still, I would like to be able to at least turn off the menu cycling ;-)
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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Jaymos
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by Jaymos »

.
Status report on the above discussion of switching on and off menu and key longpress cycling: We implemented settings groups for the longpress options as below and we are fine tuning the timing.

The graphic identifies the steps: Primary, f, g & NOP as steps 1,2,3,4. It also identifies two types i.e. Math keys (First 15 keys in key rows 2-4) and function keys (Top 6 keys in row 1).

Default of F group is F.124 meaning for function keys: Primary then f, then NOP. That means no g. If you want to include g (step 3) in the cycle, choose F.1234 instead. If you want no f and also no g, select F.14 so that a press goes from Primary (step 1) directly to NOP (step 4)

Default of M group is M.1234 meaning Primary then f, then g, then NOP. If you do not want the f & g included in the cycle, select M.14 which excludes F (step 2) and G (step 3).
.
MODE 3 PROPOSAL 2022-12-09 Extra.png
MODE 3 PROPOSAL 2022-12-09 Extra.png (162.85 KiB) Viewed 1686 times
.
- Function keys have a F.124 option because the missing g (step 3) can be accessed by double press of the FN key. That means option F.124 longpress (for f) is meant to dovetail with double press (for g).
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Pyjam
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Re: C43 UI and other proposals

Post by Pyjam »

Hello to the community

I am new here and very interested in this project.
One thing that surprises me about the C43 layout is the location of R🠝 and ˣ√y.
Why isn't R🠝 on the R🠟 key? and ˣ√y on the √x?

  Optimot : The ⌥ keyboard layout optimized for French and English (ŵïþ ʃʉŋ 𝕂åʁɒꝃțɛɹṩ).
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