C43 based on DM41x ?

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pm42
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C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by pm42 »

Hi,
Maybe the question has already been asked and answered but I did not found it after a quick search.
Would it be possible to base the C43 on the DM41x hardware to get the 2 shift keys? They already in the right colors ;)
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akaTB
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by akaTB »

Jaco doesn't like the operators on the left.
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pm42
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by pm42 »

akaTB wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:09 pm
Jaco doesn't like the operators on the left.
Good reason. But because I'm using both daily, I do not even care anymore.
burkhard
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by burkhard »

>pm42 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:05 pm
>Would it be possible to base the C43 on the DM41x hardware to get the 2 shift keys? They already in the right colors ;)

I feel your need for two shift keys. I like the way the C43 is laid out with the exception of that overworked single shift key! I certainly see why it was done that way, to exactly use the DM42 key positions and avoid key stickers. That's a fine approach when having a C43 meant re-flashing C43 firmware onto an existing DM42. For such a re-purposed machine, it's reasonable logic. But it forces a very complicated calculator to make do with just a single shift key by single/double/triple pressing it for things. I've tried it and wanted to like it, but found it clumsy and infuriating. I'm pretty sure which key will be the first to wear out as well...

But now that C43 is intended for production (instead of WP43), there no longer is the constraint of having to abide exactly to DM42 key positions—the former reason no longer exists! Can we not now throw away that "we can only have one shift key" constraint and have 2 native shift keys in the appropriate colors? There already is an "official" alternate layout in the C43 documentation that does just that. Why not make this the main "production-intent" approach in order to provide a proper molded-in-blue g key? This needs a serious rethink.
Last edited by burkhard on Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
pm42
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by pm42 »

burkhard wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 pm
But now that C43 is intended for production (instead of WP43)
It was my understanding that the C43 was just a backup solution after SwissMicros cancelled its plan to produce the WP43s.
If they indeed build the C43 instead, 2 shift keys would be good.
burkhard
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by burkhard »

pm42 wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:22 pm
burkhard wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 pm
But now that C43 is intended for production (instead of WP43)
It was my understanding that the C43 was just a backup solution after SwissMicros cancelled its plan to produce the WP43s.
If they indeed build the C43 instead, 2 shift keys would be good.
I thought the story was that for varied reasons, SM decided not to make the WP43, but was going to instead switch to its branch, the C43. As I read it, most of the firmware development team was also moving to the C43 and in essence, the WP43 and C43 would swap roles, the former becoming a branch of the latter, which would assume the status of the production-intent design.

But maybe I interpreted things wrong? Would someone please clarify the current roadmap?
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by H2X »

burkhard wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 pm
But it forces a very complicated calculator to make do with just a single shift key by single/double/triple pressing it for things.
On C43 triple-press shift is an alternative way to get to the HOME menu but you don't need this as HOME also sits on g(7).

All you really have to add to your repertoire is to press it twice for g-shift. Slow or fast doesn't matter for activating g-shift, but you might inadvertently activate the triple-shift if you happen to press it fast enough three times in a row.

Otherwise, the f-shift, g-shift, back to unshifted is implemented as a cycle so that you can undo an unintentional shift press just as you would on a calculator with normal shift keys.

PS: I get that you have a different preference, which is of course perfectly fine. I just wanted to comment on triple-pressing the shift key.
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pm42
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by pm42 »

Double-shift is not the end of the world and I find the C43 approach elegant as it allowed me to convert a DM42 quickly and without having to wait for a dedicated hardware that will never come nor having to use keys stickers. I used them to build WP-34s and disliked them.

But one can dream of something with 2 shift keys.
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by H2X »

pm42 wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:15 am
But one can dream of something with 2 shift keys.
Absolutely, and I never want to take that away. :)
Last edited by H2X on Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jaymos
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Re: C43 based on DM41x ?

Post by Jaymos »

DM41x Layouts?
On layouts I can say a lot as we have tried and distilled a lot of these over the last 4 years.

We have our traditional single shift key layout, which has now stabilized. As you know, that fits on the hardware of the DM42 without changing any of the molded keys. We also have have tried and gave up on the DM32 layout for the purposes of using that hardware instead (The invite is still open for anyone to come up with a well thought through label set for the DM32 layout and I will make it an option). I also looked at the DM41x layout and also could not come up with a workable solution there. Here I extend the same invite to anyone to come up with a workable solution on DM41X (same criteria: keep the keys & change the bezel) to have functionality for menu arrows, text entry, and a suitably direct math palette. If the layout works, I will put it in as a keyboard option in KEYS for trying out. This is a community project after all.

Yes, "Jaco does not like left operators" is correct, therefore I will fight hard to keep the C43 original DM42 layout. But Jaco is not the only one in the community project and as such we have considered various options already. We have made the good layout options, i.e. the ones with merit, softkeys in the KEYS menu (see attached pic), and in the simulator you can try and see if it works for you.

In our group there are some who absolutely swear by the single shift key layout and some having more options in their minds. That is ok. In my opinion, single shift works better. I have a C43 with nice paper template and a WP43 pilot directly next to one another in my office and my comment and preference is C43, which is what my fingers prefer. The comments that the shift key is overloaded is nicely addressed by H2X in the previous post, and I stand by that - if you only use the "enablers" (see my Allschwil talk), it is not overloaded (IMO). The rest is optional.
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Clipboard01q.png
Clipboard01q.png (3.63 KiB) Viewed 1215 times
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The image is of the KEYS menu and shows selections for current and past layouts:

The layouts:
  • C43: The perfect DM42 match with the keys and menus at best (single shift). (C code name for Classic)
  • C43AltA: Is a modified C43 layout using two shifts, with the shift keys on the WP43 positions. This has the SIN/COS/TAN keys replaced with shifts. It is possible to use this two shift layout with the existing C43 template and a little bit of imagination (TRIG menu on SIN) - it is for this reason that the yellow and blue lines are marked on the bezel under COS and TAN. The yellow key has the un-labelled GTO, LBL and RTN which is not a problem as these ARE also in the P.FN menu as well. This layout has a permanent USER key in place of Sigma+ for ease of changing between layouts on the same bezel. We do not intend to use this more than a user option to use the published C43 bezel.
  • V43RT: An actively developed and commented on keyboard layout (which I actually like (if it was not for the two shift keys:-) )): It has the operators left (in the old HP sequence) and the shift keys as per the SM WP43 molded key layout. If this goes the right way this could be part of the manufacturing options - but it needs a lot more comments and working the plate to get to stability. (V code name for Vintage)
  • DM42: A layout with most important functions on the yellow labels such that you can actually use the calculator without a bezel. We do not intend to use this one more than a user option for using unmodified DM42.
  • WP 43S: This is the 2-shift compatibility layout that has now been enabled to provide a C43 path for the WP43 Pilots out there. We do not intend to use this one more than a user option for using unmodified pilots.
  • V43 LT: Depreciated: is an experimental left operator left hand shift key option.
  • C43AltB: Depreciated: is a modified C43 layout with single shift.
Jaco Mostert
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https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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