Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
Thomas Okken
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Thomas Okken »

redglyph wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:58 pm
RPN is funny but not really intuitive, even in its last iteration, because you have to know when the stack is lifted and when stack lifting is disabled.
That's not an essential feature of RPN, though, that's just ENTER being weird. There's no reason why a classic-style keystroke-programmable RPN calculator couldn't also provide DUP. Wouldn't that take care of the problem?
packrat
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by packrat »

It somewhat felt that programming in RPN would very frequently involve a little bit of messing around to fix small errrs that weren't that easy to spot out of the gate. I guess missing what ENTER would do would be an example of this.. Yes, DUP would fix the problem for sure.

I had very crisp expectations of behvious when working in RPL though, because in that case I was in programming mode, not just automating keystrokes and my expectations of the system felt different.

B>
Linus_Sch
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

ben.titmus wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:34 am
I can't agree with this assessment. Even if the clockspeed were to be sufficient to be the same as the 50G that would mean that we're as good as a really old calculator. The DM42 is significantly faster than the HP-42S and we'd expect a newer RPL calculator to be in the same league as the Prime, not the 50G. Whilst the SoC allows external memory, that memory is likely to be slow in comparison (I haven't checked the specs though). In any case, if an extra row of keys is needed then you need a different PCB, and given all the associated costs of creating a new PCB design, you might as well change the SoC at the same time.

As I say, I think you'd need a better SoC. If you add extra batteries then you have two choices: move to AAA or add extra coin cells. At that size I'd prefer AAA, which is the same decision HP made (for good reason). (I'm not really sure why anyone would prefer coin cells except because it keeps the size down, in which case surely the size is the requirement rather than the batteries?) Nowadays the only interface that makes sense is USB-C which the DM32 will have. Maybe IR if you have an old printer.
The ARM920T in the 50g and its sibling calculators has larger cache sizes, which is a performance advantage sometimes, but I don't know how rare or common that is with calculator software. The far more modern Cortex M33 in the DM32 gets 1.5 MIPS per MHz rather than 1.11, which is a more general (yet not entirely general) performance advantage. The DM32 has more flash and more ROM. I stand by my assessment that it is more powerful than the 50g.

However, if the target is the Prime, I guess it is quite far behind (but I have not looked into the Prime at all yet). But I guess this is a matter of preference. I have very very rarely wished my 50g to be any faster. I have quite often wished that it was smaller, and that it ran on coin cells.
ben.titmus wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:34 am
I'm not particularly interested in getting a SM 50G, because I have two 50Gs already (although both running newRPL).
I have two as well, one of them stock, one of them newRPL. Both have specks of dust in their screens and one has a wonky F6 key. Both are a bit too large for my liking. I don't think either of them is likely to survive for the 40 years that I still expect to need them. I'm very interested!
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rudi
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by rudi »

Just a few wishes:

Color display
Backlit screen
Backlit keys

8-)
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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redglyph
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Thomas Okken wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:54 am
redglyph wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:58 pm
RPN is funny but not really intuitive, even in its last iteration, because you have to know when the stack is lifted and when stack lifting is disabled.
That's not an essential feature of RPN, though, that's just ENTER being weird. There's no reason why a classic-style keystroke-programmable RPN calculator couldn't also provide DUP. Wouldn't that take care of the problem?
It would but that would take an extra label somewhere. It would be easier to change the behaviour, unless there's something particular worth keeping with RPN but I don't see it.

The x² argument doesn't make much sense to me because it eats up one precious stack level, IMO that key should be stand-alone and not shifted since it's likely more frequent than SQRT which often operates on a number of squared values (what HP seems to have finally realized with the Prime). So a simple RPL behaviour seems to make things much cleaner both in handling of the stack and in programming, without requiring separate ENTER / DUP operations.
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Linus_Sch wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:11 am
However, if the target is the Prime, I guess it is quite far behind (but I have not looked into the Prime at all yet). But I guess this is a matter of preference. I have very very rarely wished my 50g to be any faster. I have quite often wished that it was smaller, and that it ran on coin cells.
Agreed, I'd rather have a calculator that doesn't empty its batteries too often (esp. if the indicator is not reliable) than a super-fast one. There are laptops and desktop computers for heavy burden. I remember that changing the batteries of my HP-48SX was a rare event, even when I was using it very frequently. :)

IMO using ARM CPUs is already an overkill, though with better technology nodes and advances in digital power-saving techniques, some of them must be acceptable solutions for a calculator.
ben.titmus
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by ben.titmus »

Linus_Sch wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:11 am
ben.titmus wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:34 am
I'm not particularly interested in getting a SM 50G, because I have two 50Gs already (although both running newRPL).
... I don't think either of them is likely to survive for the 40 years that I still expect to need them. I'm very interested!
Of course, if nobody produces a better calculator within even the next 10 years I am interested in a SM 50G. But I really hope we can aim higher than an almost 20 year old calculator.
Linus_Sch wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:11 am
... I stand by my assessment that it is more powerful than the 50g.

... I have very very rarely wished my 50g to be any faster. I have quite often wished that it was smaller, and that it ran on coin cells.
It's a fair enough point that we don't necessarily need a faster calculator than the 50G (although there are times when I wish mine was faster). If we're just going to replicate the functionality of the 50G then sure, then DM32 is good enough (probably). Of course, even if the same SoC was used, it doesn't mean that there is little development effort needed. Even "just" adding an extra row of buttons would be quite expensive and require a new PCB and case. Since almost all the time the calculator is idle, what really matters is just how much time is spent idle. My guess is that RPL calculators are much less efficient than RPN (because they need to interpret a lot more), so power consumption would be quite a bit higher. Don't expect that a 50G running on the DM32 platform would have the same power consumption. It may be possible to put an extra coin cell in to "fix" this though.

But I really don't understand why anyone likes coin cells. Please explain. Is it the case size that you care about? I hate coin cells because I have a baby and coin cells are extremely dangerous to children if swallowed so I'd rather have AAA batteries. Case size matters a little, but I think the DM42 is about as big as I'd want for a "pocket" calculator (a point that I think Walter has made is that any bigger and it won't fit in your pocket). Even extending the size to add an extra row is likely to make it less "pocketable", in which case I don't object to a thicker case to accomodate AAA and significantly improve battery life.
rudi wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:51 am
Color display
Backlit screen
Backlit keys
I agree with colour display. I think it makes sense when plotting graphs to have multiple colours, even if it is used rarely. I'm not so sure on the other two as they are a major power drain and I'm not sure I'd use them. But I wouldn't object if others cared! (I'm not sure what the extra power consumption of colour displays is compared to just black and white, but I'd assume it's quite a bit more, so that may be worth considering.)
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Walter
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Walter »

ben.titmus wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:11 pm
... I really don't understand why anyone likes coin cells. Please explain. Is it the case size that you care about? I hate coin cells because I have a baby and coin cells are extremely dangerous to children if swallowed so I'd rather have AAA batteries. Case size matters a little, but I think the DM42 is about as big as I'd want for a "pocket" calculator (a point that I think Walter has made is that any bigger and it won't fit in your pocket). Even extending the size to add an extra row is likely to make it less "pocketable", in which case I don't object to a thicker case to accomodate AAA and significantly improve battery life.
1+. Quality coin cells are far more expensive than AAA, and it gets even worse when you compare their capacity in Wh. A little protrusion or bulge (?) at the top of the calculator backside would suffice unless one wants to increase the wedge angle. That's a question of steel sheet spinning technique (Am.: technology).
ben.titmus wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:11 pm
rudi wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:51 am
Color display
Backlit screen
Backlit keys
I agree with colour display. I think it makes sense when plotting graphs to have multiple colours, even if it is used rarely. I'm not so sure on the other two as they are a major power drain and I'm not sure I'd use them. But I wouldn't object if others cared! (I'm not sure what the extra power consumption of colour displays is compared to just black and white, but I'd assume it's quite a bit more, so that may be worth considering.)
Colour display: Most of today's colour graphic can be done as well if not with better contrast in b/w. Rule of thumb: As long as you need coloured pencils for homework you need a colour display.
Backlit screen and keys: Depends if you use your calculator in mines, caves, or unlit cellars; then you profit from backlighting. Without, your batteries will last significantly longer.
YMMV
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by H2X »

rudi wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:51 am
Just a few wishes:

Color display
Backlit screen
Backlit keys

8-)
I'd like a LED display. It has color and backlight. Really, I would. 8-)
Last edited by H2X on Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the metric tensor in imperial units?
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rudi
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by rudi »

As a former mariner, I know it would be appreciated on the bridge of a ship at night, perhaps also in the cockpit of a plane at night.
And now as an enthusiastic amateur astronomer, I am probably not the only one using a DM, would appreciate it out under the stars at night.
However, the display of my DM42 is very easy to read with my very dim red head lamp (is it e-ink?), but I would really like to have the backlit display and keys still.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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