Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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redglyph
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Peet wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:22 am
At the top of my list would be further development/troubleshooting of existing products or at least an improvement of the hardware platform and significantly better communication with customers.
Aren't they making a new improved hardware platform for the DM32? That's what I understood from the video.

I don't think it's the topic of this thread but I agree that the QA should be improved; perhaps it's already the case since the last calculator I've bought. The DM42 I received had its bottom left corner not properly inserted, and it had been forced shut by the screws so it was completely bent. I could take it apart and re-assemble it properly but I'm starting to wonder if that's not the cause of the keyboard having such an uneven feel across the keys. This type of mistake is obvious and should be detected.

About communication, I never had any problem, they're answering pretty quickly. But use email, not the forums. Again, I don't think it's on-topic.
Peet
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Peet »

redglyph wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:08 am
I don't think it's the topic of this thread ... Again, I don't think it's on-topic.
Thanks for explaining that the desire for improvements of the hardware platform is offtopic here.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(256kB), HP35S, Prime, DM41X, DM42
redglyph
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Peet wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:55 pm
redglyph wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:08 am
I don't think it's the topic of this thread ... Again, I don't think it's on-topic.
Thanks for explaining that the desire for improvements of the hardware platform is offtopic here.
You must have misread my post, that's what I replied regarding platform improvement:
Aren't they making a new improved hardware platform for the DM32? That's what I understood from the video.
Peet
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Peet »

redglyph wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:31 pm
You must have misread my post, that's what I replied regarding platform improvement:
No I don't. My wishes for improvements of the hardware relate exactly to the areas for which you mentioned in your post as offtopic examples - e.g. build quality, haptic etc. But lets stop this pointless conversation at this point.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(256kB), HP35S, Prime, DM41X, DM42
redglyph
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Peet wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:39 pm
No I don't. My wishes for improvements of the hardware relate exactly to the areas for which you mentioned in your post as offtopic examples - e.g. build quality, haptic etc. But lets stop this pointless conversation at this point.
I just believe that you'll get more traction if you opened a dedicated thread for everything related to QA. As I said, it's just what I think, I'm not stating that as a fact. Here people are replying to the first post and discussing future products so I don't think they'll be very receptive to criticism on the "troubleshooting" (that's QA) and "communication" issues, especially if they're vague and without any specifics.

You didn't mention "haptic" before; if you mean the keyboard I'd be all for a better one too! From the video, I think that's what they already have in the pipe for the DM32, and for the current DM42/DM41X with the new domes.

That's a good question though, is the keyboard of the DM32 the same as the current ones, or is it further improved?
rprosperi
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by rprosperi »

Walter wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:19 am
rprosperi wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:48 pm
The DM42 and DM41X do and always have had small slots on the sides of the keyboard, just above the original metal bezel, to hold tabs on an overlay.
Bet I know the person who told SwissMicros to design the DM42 this way (in 2016).
Me too, and I'll bet he had some plans for using overlays... :)
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
Linus_Sch
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

rprosperi wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:59 pm
Walter wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:19 am
rprosperi wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:48 pm
The DM42 and DM41X do and always have had small slots on the sides of the keyboard, just above the original metal bezel, to hold tabs on an overlay.
Bet I know the person who told SwissMicros to design the DM42 this way (in 2016).
Me too, and I'll bet he had some plans for using overlays... :)
I'm not very good at reading between the lines, but it seems to me that it was Walter. Thankyou for suggesting it, and thankyou to SwissMicros for listening! Flexible hardware is a very good thing in many cases, especially when the market is small and their applications are diverse.

Then again, I'm highly partial to having several sets of different primary key assignments. Which is why I want blank keys to go with my overlays. But yeah, still a total of just 12 votes on that poll, out of which 4 answered that they were not interested in the blank and the rest were split about labelling the enter row. I think that means that the market for a blank option is a small and split part of an already small and split market. Also I left out the option of fully blank, including the keys that are normally numbers and operators, which may have been a mistake.

I'll just end up putting blank stickers on the keys, I guess. Eventually.
Linus_Sch
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

I have an idea for a DMCP calculator that may have made more sense if I had it a year or two ago. It hits two birds with one stone, a simple scientific calculator and mostly blank keys. A certain 50-year-old.

I'm not sure if a blue enter would be feasible, and it is certainly not easy to venture into putting legends onto blue keys. I think I'd make the top right key and column left of the numbers blue, and put legends on no keys at all, only on the faceplate. If it were up to me :D

Functionally I'd go for no shifted functions other than arc, y^x, 10^x, x^2, display modes... then \(\leftarrow\) in addition to Cl \(x\), finally deg/rad mode. In order of descending priority. Am I out of keys yet?

If not I'd like XEQ and PRG, keystroke programming with zero programming features. Essentially a macro key, just so I can temporarily put something like \(1-x\) or \(\sqrt{x^2+y^2}\) as a one key operation. No loops, no labels, not even up and down keys to edit the program. Just use the great screen and limit the program steps to what can be reasonably displayed (and be reasonably non-frustrating with extremely limited editing). I'm fairly sure Cl \(x\) is useless in such a macro so that key could clear the macro in programming mode while \(\leftarrow\) deletes the last step.

I don't have time for mocking up layouts now. I'd be interested to see it, so if someone else feels this is a fun idea, please go ahead :)
dlachieze
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by dlachieze »

Linus_Sch wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:33 pm
If not I'd like XEQ and PRG, keystroke programming with zero programming features. Essentially a macro key, just so I can temporarily put something like \(1-x\) or \(\sqrt{x^2+y^2}\) as a one key operation. No loops, no labels, not even up and down keys to edit the program. Just use the great screen and limit the program steps to what can be reasonably displayed (and be reasonably non-frustrating with extremely limited editing). I'm fairly sure Cl\(x\) is useless in such a macro so that key could clear the macro in programming mode while \(\leftarrow\) deletes the last step.
This type of macros was called Key Sequences on the HP-35, there was a Key Sequence form published by HP to document your own key sequences and they published some key sequences reference manuals such as the HP-35 Math Pac.

But to transform manual key sequences into automated macros you need an input function to stop the macro to enter a value and then a way to restart the macro.
DM42: 00425 - DM41X: β00066 - WP43: 00042
Linus_Sch
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

I started writing this in response to the following post in the thread about DM32 extensions of the 32sii, but it ends up more appropriate in this thread.
Boub65 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:55 pm
Now about the DM32 targeting a "new" population of users not already aficionados of HP RPN calculators...
I think it is very difficult, and I will explain my position..

DM41X price is 229 CHF
DM42 price is 199 CHF
DM41L price is 129 CHF

Based on the fact that DM32 will have a keyboard complexity similar to DM41X (two colors shift + alpha) I think that the price sould be similar to DM41X and will not be lower than DM42... so let suppose that the price is around 199 CHF...

Do you really think that a "non HP RPN aficionado, born after 1980" (up to 40 years old), will buy a calculator that has such a "gross" display (look at the WP43S display just to compare), with no way to display messages other than using an "equation" and a flag (weird isn't it ?), using .0-.9 for 10-19, reading A.01 and A,01 istead of A101 and A201, with limited complex, no matrix, etc.. etc... and for 199 CHF ? I really don't think so...

So, the price should be looooooower than 199CHF (at the level of DM41L or 149CHF maximum) or the "non HP RPN aficionados born after 1980" will just buy the extraordinary WP43S for just a bit more (249 CHF?).

May I remind you that the competition on this market segment is Casio at 50$ or Ti at 100$ with all the "power" features that seam not "simple" enought for DM32!

I don't speak about us (HP RPN aficionados) of course, that will buy any thing that SM throws at us... :D :D :D

Just my 0.02c about adressing a new market segment.
To a limited extent, the users of the DM32 might be a bit younger and/or a bit less hardcore enthusiasts. The 32sii had more such users than the 42s originally. And I think that those who got started on an RPL calculator, never had 4 level RPN, but are curious about the old way and/or wants something pocketable might be very interested. Not too sure how many those people are but it's at least me.

My story:
I was born in 1990, so I might be the youngest person active on these forums. :lol: In 2006, when I started the part of education where we needed a graphing calculator, the school I went to tried to get away from TI and ended up with some absolutely awful Sharp ones. I nicknamed mine "Puckot", which translates to "the idiot". It eventually stopped working altogether. So I went on the internet and searched for the best calculator ever made. I may be a bit of a nerd about any tools and any technology, and I may have had no idea what I was getting myself into. :D I found out about HP calculators and RPN, as one does when searching for that, and I was intrigued. A friend of my dad had what I believe was a 42s, possibly a 28s, and I was allowed to borrow it for one weekend including the manual - "absolutely needs to be back Monday morning, I can't do my job without it!" - and I was convinced. So I ordered my first HP, a 50g, probably in the spring of 2007.

I sought out a used 32sii in good condition a few years ago, because the 50g is large and sometimes I want a physical but pocketable calculator. I specifically did not want a 42, even though the DM42 was already a thing (but it was early days of that), because I would just get angry at that one for not being a 50g (and risk sinking loads of time into porting newRPL onto DMCP in order to sort of but not quite fix that). I was also curious about the programming model before RPL, it seemed like it might be easier to grasp than RPL programming which still hasn't clicked with me. But I most definitely did not want to read my program steps in terms of keycodes!

Finally, in practice, I find it rather problematic that I see only the x register when calculating and only one line at a time when programming. To me the DM32 will indeed be the friendliest handheld calculator ever made that is RPN keystroke programmable. Anything that doesn't show the complete stack is inherently harder, less friendly.

Conclusion? If some nerd is curious about all these calculators, other than free apps, the DM32 will be what I recommend as a starting point. Unless graphing is needed.

Finding a new market segment:
The price makes it nerds only, but I do think everything but the cheapest possible or the same one that everyone else has is unavoidably nerds only when it comes to physical calculators - RPN or otherwise! Trying to produce the cheapest possible does not seem fit for SwissMicros. The only way to find a new market is to find new nerds, to target the nerds that are not yet calculator nerds. Such as I was when I first found out about HP and found my way to the 50g. And the DM32 is not going to do that.

One way to do that would be to market the 43, when it comes, as "allegedly the best calculator ever made". I haven't looked into it closely enough yet but I might be the one saying it. It depends on whether it can do units and custom menus good enough, this to me is the killer features of RPL that makes the 50g stand head and shoulders above everything that isn't RPL (and the larger screen makes it better than the rest of them, to me). But if I don't say it is the best calculator ever made, someone else will, so that marketing line will work. Then that line and the product needs to be shown to the nerds that will take an interest. Send one to the EEVBLOG, one to Matt Parker (Stand-Up Maths), get one to show up on Numberphile or Computerphile somehow, send one to Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown), one to Jeff Geerling, one to LTT, one to Adam Savage, and so on.

Another way to find new nerds is to specifically target some of them. The makers that do hardware tinkering can be easily targeted by making tinker-friendly hardware, especially in combination with a feature set targeted towards low-level programming. Don't emulate the old, it'd be much better to sleuth those forums a bit and figure out what features those users might have use for. Good programming features, bit twiddling, serial communication, logic analyzer software, hardware hackability are my guesses - I think such a device would be an easy sell to that crowd. This needs both a targeted product and some marketing legwork, going on those forums and being part of those communities, so that they listen when you say you have something interesting to show. It is said by at least one marketing expert that I know of (Jason Stoddard) to be the most effective form of marketing available today: to actually interact with the target customer group. And it makes a lot of sense.

A third way to attract some new nerds is to introduce something entirely new. I think I have one idea: a debug mode with the program code on one half of the screen and the stack and variables in use on the other half of the screen. That can not only single step through the program but also continuously step through it at a set pace, or make use of breakpoints. Like an IDE for RPN programming - in your pocket! Cool.
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