Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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Linus_Sch
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Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

Given the discussion at the end Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk I think it makes sense that we collect our current wishes for future SwissMicros products and thoughts about those wishes in a single thread.

48:
This is well understood to be in demand but tricky to achieve. Enthusiasts say "just give us hardware and Saturn emulation", while SwissMicros say that an incomplete product is not a viable product. For completeness sake I want to mention newRPL, which could be used just like Free42, but that is a less mature and complete software project so far. Maybe it is more feasible to sell hardware suited for this with Plus42 software, leaving RPL software for it to the community?

HP-IL for the 41X:
The question is only whether the demand matches the time investment to make it happen, if I understand this correctly. I'm not sure how to gauge that demand, I counted a . I myself have often wanted my calculator to interface with other hardware, but I never had a 41 (I'm way too young) and more and more I realize that if I want to interface with hardware I probably want a written programming language and a qwerty keyboard as well. Which leads to...

71b, emu72, palmtops, Linux pocket computer:
This would mean a new hardware platform. But everything mentioned in that heading could fit on the same hardware platform, and it might be very awesome. http://www.jeffcalc.hp41.eu/emu71/emu72.html

Blank:
Mentioned by Sylvain live, and I proposed the same in a thread on MoHPC forum in June, asking how blank and what keys to leave marked. Apparently the interest is limited, which surprises me. Maybe I screwed up by mentioning DM32 in the thread title, because this would essentially be a DM platform blank - 42 or 43 or 32 or the spreadsheet application or what have you, it's all the same if it's a blank. This could reasonably be sold with just the DMCP OS installed and no application. An extra model at very low volume is never easy, but it can only be easier if keys remain the same as an existing model (and the 43C is already a thing). https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-18463.html

Statistics:
It was discussed that these models have always sold surprisingly badly, given how widely used statistics are. I think the reason is that it is very often more convenient to use a full computer when doing statistics. The input data tends to be in my computer already and I want to save the output in my computer, so, reaching for the calculator doesn't make much sense. The screen, the power and the flexibility of a full computer is fairly often a big advantage for statistics.

27, 27s but RPN - do-all non-programmable:
Maybe this would make the most sense to the most people. But would it make the most sense to stay close to either of the mentioned HP models or to just start from a blank page and the DMCP hardware platform?

35, 45, but much more - scientific non-programmable, university regulations compliant:
As mentioned by ljubo in the speculations thread viewtopic.php?p=20584#p20584 this would be quite helpful to some RPN enthusiasts going through higher education. In my own experience at Uppsala University, if a calculator was allowed any calculator was allowed - memory should be cleared and it should not be able to access the internet. However: I always work with a computer and if I need to program, even in a very limited manner, I will use the computer - so a calculator with no programming functions taking up keyboard space is very appealing to me anyway! (then again, I will get a DM32, so maybe I won't feel the need for this one?) This might be close to a DM32 with programming taken away, so a lot of code reuse might be possible.

16, programmers calculator:
But, you know, modern. On the DMCP platform, with readable programming. Quite a lot of scope for extra functionality. I'd like one, but I don't need one. One might think that the sales of the DM16 is a good indicator of market size, but I guess that many many makers and professionals poking around with microcontrollers (Arduinos being the top of the iceberg) would love to have one if only they knew that it existed. I might be wrong though. Maybe mock up an image and try to gauge the interest, and ask for feature requests, from those communities?

Closing thoughts
Personally, I don't feel much need for further models based on the current hardware. I would certainly want a blank one and be interested in any non-programmable model. My ideal calculator is non-programmable but defined by myself. What I would most wish that SwissMicros worked on is hardware for emu72, that could double as a pocket computer, preferrably with an RJ45 network port and some USB ports, with USB keyboard support and HP-IL and full IEEE-488 capabilities in the 71b-like ROM. That would be the dream machine for instrument control and beyond.

My second highest wish is hardware suited for RPL. I've toyed multiple times with key layouts that could make newRPL feasible on the current hardware, but just adding one row of keys would make way more sense.
dlachieze
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by dlachieze »

Linus_Sch wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
I would certainly want a blank one and be interested in any non-programmable model.
Out of curiosity, what would you do with a blank one that you cannot do with a DM42? Wouldn’t a blank one require key overlay masking the current marking anyway?
DM42: 00425 - DM41X: β00066 - WP43: 00042
Dave Britten
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Dave Britten »

I'd really like to see HP-IL on the 41X, but not for interfacing with real hardware. I just want HP-IL module and storage emulation so you can mount LIF disk images on the FAT disk and have floppy/mass storage emulation. It's kind of bewildering that it's been almost 2 years since the 41X got any updates. There's still several things to address, like extended memory file import/export, and a few small lingering bugs. Did SM get bored with it already?

And I'll put in another vote for a DM71. Having a 71B in something the size of a Sharp PC-1403 would be really cool.
Linus_Sch
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

dlachieze wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:58 pm
Out of curiosity, what would you do with a blank one that you cannot do with a DM42? Wouldn’t a blank one require key overlay masking the current marking anyway?
I would avoid getting confused and distracted by the primary markings on the keys, without having to cover them with stickers. Yes I would use an overlay, and I would note my custom primary functions on that overlay, instead of on stickers. This is very useful for calculators dedicated to special purposes.

ETA: Especially calculators that are moved between several different special purposes. Switching out an overlay is easy, switching out key stickers is a pain.

ETA 2: Or if I want the optimal solution for this, I'll write a calculator application where all three of the top rows are a single custom menu that is displayed on screen. If I can find the time.
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Calambres
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Calambres »

I think what SM is lacking is a really affordable model to make the new generations aware of RPN. With current prices only us-old-farts-who-know-RPN-from-many-moons-ago-and-have-deep-pockets are attracted, I'm afraid :roll:
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Walter
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Walter »

Calambres wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:18 pm
I think what SM is lacking is a really affordable model to make the new generations aware of RPN. With current prices only us-old-farts-who-know-RPN-from-many-moons-ago-and-have-deep-pockets are attracted, I'm afraid :roll:
10 +

And @Linus_Sch: Whatever you might want to do with a blank or an HP-16C-like model, you can do with a 43S in user mode. Just try it.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
WillMarchant
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by WillMarchant »

Linus_Sch wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
...
16, programmers calculator:
But, you know, modern. On the DMCP platform, with readable programming. Quite a lot of scope for extra functionality. I'd like one, but I don't need one. One might think that the sales of the DM16 is a good indicator of market size, but I guess that many many makers and professionals poking around with microcontrollers (Arduinos being the top of the iceberg) would love to have one if only they knew that it existed. I might be wrong though. Maybe mock up an image and try to gauge the interest, and ask for feature requests, from those communities?
...
I really don't use the programming functions of the HP-16C and would like to see those put into menus and the now free keys used for "regular calculator" stuff. I spend time going back and forth between the DM16L and the DM42.

I'd favor the Voyager format for this machine because of portability. But it would be nice to have the extra screen real estate for dealing with wide bit patterns. So maybe the DM42 format would be better.

I'd buy the credit card sized version, too. Maybe a 50% sized DM42 platform?
ctrclckws
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by ctrclckws »

The DM41X, and DM42 are high end very capable calculators, and I purchased them from SwissMicros, just because I wanted to learn.
At the time of the originals I never had exposure to the HP versions.

Same for the 32sii. no exposure when new.

When the time came and I got a calculator for school, it was the original TI-30, with LED's and the nine volt battery. I even had a power supply that had the nine volt socket cap on it. This was the 8th grade, which for me would have been 77-78.

My interest in HP and RPN started in college, when I got an HP-15C, purchased new. I don't know what happened to that one, but I had it for a long time. Life events must have caused it to be lost. Most likely in a fire in 1997. My wife and I cleaned up the remains, but may have missed that one.
I also had an original HP-12C, in that same time period. I was doing more accounting like functions and the TVM came in handy.

I almost never had need of the programmability of either of these.
Until recently, had never heard of the other Voyagers. I could have used the 16C a lot when I was bit twiddling with my Atari 800. The 10C would be a good intro calculator, but as HP found out, probably not enough to differentiate it from the 11C.
Thanks to EBAY and SwissMicros, I have re-acquired versions of these.

So after a little rambling, what would I choose?

It would be nice if it would have enough demand to be producible.

Entry level: Basic four banger, with a memory register? no, so many of these are available, on phones or software for other platforms, it wouldn't be a good choice.
Entry level scientific, not programmable: This would be possible, and if accepted for grade school use, would have a big market, but TI has that locked.
Mid-level fully featured: I.e Scientific and Financial: Now we are getting into the hardware used for the DM42/DM41X or DM32. That comes with a basic manufacturing cost to be recovered, plus profit. Is the DM32 already most of this?
HIgh end: Already have those and the WP-43S real soon now, running on the DMCP platform promises to be the summit, with everything possible.

So, my choice would likely be an RPN version of the TI-30, (sacrilege, to this audience).
A good entry-level scientific, possibly including some financial functions. That sounds like the HP-27 to me.

The harder problem would be marketing anything to the rest of the world. After all, only true believers will seek out calculators that are not easily available in their local store. Current TI-30xiis models are going for under $20 with the mass production abilities of TI, so I don't know if people would buy something in the estimated $80 - $100 price range, even if it's more durable and made of better materials.

Thank you David and Michael for recreating the wonders of the HP world. (and Thomas Okken for Free42 / Plus42, as well).
Given that the HP-12C is still being produced new, I find it amazing that the DM12 and DM12L sell.
DM10, DM10L: 00031 / DM11, DM11L: 00112 / DM12, DM12L: 02074
DM15, DM15L: 11069 / DM16. DM16L: 02001 / DM41, DM41L: 00859
DM41X: 00036ß / 00181 DM42: 3108 / 6084 WP43: 0032
Dave Britten
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Dave Britten »

Calambres wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:18 pm
I think what SM is lacking is a really affordable model to make the new generations aware of RPN. With current prices only us-old-farts-who-know-RPN-from-many-moons-ago-and-have-deep-pockets are attracted, I'm afraid :roll:
Definitely. If they could produce a lower-cost (like $30-50 USD) two-line DM32 in an OEM chassis like a Canon F-792SGA (great calculator, by the way), or a NumWorks or what have you, I think that would go a long way. I'm sure I'll buy the new DM32, but I don't know that dropping approximately $200 is seen as a reasonable entry point for the RPN-curious. ;)
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ijabbott
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by ijabbott »

A DM42Plus running Plus42 on the new SOC platform would be nice (if it fits). SM would need to license the Plus42 code from Thomas, perhaps on a royalty basis.
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