Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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Emy
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Emy »

Boub65 wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:41 pm
My one and only resquest for the new U5 plateform would be to be able to read/send serial text messages using the USB-C connector.
It should be theoretically possible, although the actual support is yet to be determined.
etn
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by etn »

redglyph wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:42 pm
So would I. :)

But I understand that it would be hard to squeeze it into the flash of the current version?
I don't know about that but, if I compare to Plus42 on my iphone, it seems that 1 row of keys is also required.

Time for SwissMicros to build a new platform with a slightly longer case, an extra row of keys, and a bit more flash. This could open up a DM48, a Plus42, and certainly much more. A less cramped keyboard layout for WP43 perhaps?
I'd buy one (probably even two) in a heartbeat even at 300 CHF.
redglyph
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

etn wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:24 pm
I don't know about that but, if I compare to Plus42 on my iphone, it seems that 1 row of keys is also required.

Time for SwissMicros to build a new platform with a slightly longer case, an extra row of keys, and a bit more flash. This could open up a DM48, a Plus42, and certainly much more. A less cramped keyboard layout for WP43 perhaps?
I'd buy one (probably even two) in a heartbeat even at 300 CHF.
An extra row wouldn't hurt.

But I think it's possible to get the Plu42 working without it, you can actually try it with a DM42 skin; see this past discussion: viewtopic.php?p=24288#p24288
Pirx
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Pirx »

Here's a completely different idea, starting from some real-world facts, such as:
  • Just about nobody, or at least to as close an approximation as you get nobody, needs or uses a professional calculator anymore, of the level that SwissMicros is producing these days
  • Therefore, the market for SM's products is miniscule to non-existing
  • The products SwissMicros produces are almost exclusively bought by a tiny group of calculator enthusiasts
  • Practically speaking, these devices thus function as toys more than anything else
Please keep in mind, the above is coming from one of these weird, nostalgic people who loves these devices, but will readily admit that it's been a long time he has had a real use for one of them.

So, what would such a device look like, that a non-trivial number of people would actually want to use? This is keeping in mind the fact that office workers nowadays can simply use any number of calculator/computational applications on their computers.
My answer to these questions is this: Make the calculator a companion device, that connects to a fully functional desktop application via Bluetooth. Such a calculator can then function as an input device driving, say, an emulator application on the desktop (or even phone/tablet). Critically, we would include two-way communication, which would allow the user to use their desktops (or phone's/tablet's) copy-and-paste functionality to provide input that would be synced between the desktop application and the calculator. So someone could copy, say, an array of numbers out of a spreadsheet or even a Word table, and paste it as input to the calculator app and the calculator.

All this would require is a Bluetooth communication stack (and the chip, of course) on the calculator, and the appropriate communications software on both sides. Not a trivial project, certainly, but I think a device with that functionality could be of some interest.
Just an idea, of course, and I am under no illusion that the above device would have a big market, but it would certainly have a bigger market than any pocket calculator, no matter how powerful, could ever have.

My two cents…
redglyph
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Pirx wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:42 pm
Here's a completely different idea, starting from some real-world facts, such as:
  • Just about nobody, or at least to as close an approximation as you get nobody, needs or uses a professional calculator anymore, of the level that SwissMicros is producing these days
  • Therefore, the market for SM's products is miniscule to non-existing
  • The products SwissMicros produces are almost exclusively bought by a tiny group of calculator enthusiasts
  • Practically speaking, these devices thus function as toys more than anything else
I'm not sure how you concluded that nobody needed scientific calculators but I don't think it's correct. There are lot of engineers or student engineers who use them constantly. And being in meetings, on the field, or in class doesn't always make it possible to use a computer. Ti and Casio are still selling several models. Currently, nobody is producing scientific RPN calculators anymore except the HP Prime which is rigged with bugs and far from convenient to use. RPN is faster than algebraic entry among other advantages, so there must be a demand for it, though more reduced than algebraic because for some reason the latter became dominant at school (I believe that's because it's more natural to use at first since it's similar to how you write the calculation on paper - however RPN is similar to how you compute the result on paper).

Only SM knows the actual numbers, but the fact they expand their product line and that Michael decided recently to leave his job to work full time in the company after several years strongly suggests that the market is large enough for what they do. Perhaps the market is not large enough for a mass production, at least in the scientific specialization, that's why we only see financial RPN calculators sold in large numbers.
Pirx wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:42 pm
Make the calculator a companion device, that connects to a fully functional desktop application via Bluetooth. Such a calculator can then function as an input device driving, say, an emulator application on the desktop (or even phone/tablet).
I fail to see the point, but that's only my opinion. Computer keyboards are much more comfortable than calculators', especially small productions like SM's. I often use a computer RPN calculator when I'm in front of it, rather than a calculator, except if I need to do a series of calculations involving scientific operators. I already have my hands on the keyboard, and one more object on the desk requires more room and to shift position, so there are no upsides, only disadvantages.

I think it would be interesting to have a wireless connection rather than USB, but
  • it draws more power from what is meant to be a low-power device
  • it requires a network stack and I doubt there is enough flash memory (2 MB in the new model) to support that and leave enough room for the main purpose (calculation)
  • it requires the WiFi or Bluetooth chip and antenna, so a brand new model only for that functionality (whereas the approach so far has been multi-purpose models to reconcile production costs and smaller market). Though maybe it would have other advantages, but this requires the memory mentioned above.
JimP
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by JimP »

Has anyone floated the idea of a DM version of HP's XPander?
Linus_Sch
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Linus_Sch »

redglyph wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:24 am
Pirx wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:42 pm
Make the calculator a companion device, that connects to a fully functional desktop application via Bluetooth. Such a calculator can then function as an input device driving, say, an emulator application on the desktop (or even phone/tablet).
I fail to see the point, but that's only my opinion. Computer keyboards are much more comfortable than calculators', especially small productions like SM's. I often use a computer RPN calculator when I'm in front of it, rather than a calculator, except if I need to do a series of calculations involving scientific operators. I already have my hands on the keyboard, and one more object on the desk requires more room and to shift position, so there are no upsides, only disadvantages.
I see the point, I often wish to copy numbers between my calculator and my computer. At least 95% of my calculator usage nowadays is sitting in front of a computer and needing to calculate and/or convert something to be used as input into some software, generally for a bigger computation. Or as a constant in some code.

Maybe I have just not found the right software RPL calculator? I have a feeling newRPL if not already meeting my needs could be configured and/or modified to meet them. Maybe my need for scientific functions is just more than my willingness to figure out working key assignments for it all.

Maybe I just enjoy interacting with another device to break the monotony of working solely with the computer keyboard and screen for the entire workday. Eh, not just maybe, I definitely do. It might even be pretty important.
redglyph wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:24 am
I think it would be interesting to have a wireless connection rather than USB, but
  • it draws more power from what is meant to be a low-power device
  • it requires a network stack and I doubt there is enough flash memory (2 MB in the new model) to support that and leave enough room for the main purpose (calculation)
  • it requires the WiFi or Bluetooth chip and antenna, so a brand new model only for that functionality (whereas the approach so far has been multi-purpose models to reconcile production costs and smaller market). Though maybe it would have other advantages, but this requires the memory mentioned above.
Wireless would be interesting yes, but currently the 50g on my desk runs with USB power instead of batteries just because I haven't bothered to get batteries - and the wire is not a problem to me.

Additionally, most of the time I only need to get numbers from the calculator to the computer, much less often the other way around. Therefore I propose that having the calculator emulate a keyboard, requiring no software on the computer, is still a viable way to make the calculator significantly better as a companion device!

I have thought about creating a somewhat similar device myself many times, but in terms of a computer keyboard that also had an RPN scientific calculator builtin rather than a calculator that can also connect to the computer as a keyboard. Some Focus keyboards of the past integrated simple calculators, but, no RPN and no scientific as far as I know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0cYayHt7F4
redglyph
Posts: 177
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by redglyph »

Linus_Sch wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:30 pm
I see the point, I often wish to copy numbers between my calculator and my computer. At least 95% of my calculator usage nowadays is sitting in front of a computer and needing to calculate and/or convert something to be used as input into some software, generally for a bigger computation. Or as a constant in some code.

Maybe I have just not found the right software RPL calculator? I have a feeling newRPL if not already meeting my needs could be configured and/or modified to meet them. Maybe my need for scientific functions is just more than my willingness to figure out working key assignments for it all.

Maybe I just enjoy interacting with another device to break the monotony of working solely with the computer keyboard and screen for the entire workday. Eh, not just maybe, I definitely do. It might even be pretty important.
Some good points you have there. :)

I'm using a very basic app, RPN calculator by Bill Menees (I prefer an old version 1.3 to the less old versions because everything can be done from the keyboard). No copy/paste unfortunately, it can only save the stack in a file. So it doesn't look like a good solution for you.
I'm not really satisfied by this, so I'm currently writing one, but it's more to learn Rust than anything else so I'm not sure how it'll end up. The only interesting RPN apps I found were on smartphone, or of course the multiple emulators or simulators.

I see how a dedicated device or keyboard could be easier instead of memorizing yet another list of shortcuts and finding the proper app. ;)
Linus_Sch wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:30 pm
Wireless would be interesting yes, but currently the 50g on my desk runs with USB power instead of batteries just because I haven't bothered to get batteries - and the wire is not a problem to me.

Additionally, most of the time I only need to get numbers from the calculator to the computer, much less often the other way around. Therefore I propose that having the calculator emulate a keyboard, requiring no software on the computer, is still a viable way to make the calculator significantly better as a companion device!

I have thought about creating a somewhat similar device myself many times, but in terms of a computer keyboard that also had an RPN scientific calculator builtin rather than a calculator that can also connect to the computer as a keyboard. Some Focus keyboards of the past integrated simple calculators, but, no RPN and no scientific as far as I know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0cYayHt7F4
I just don't like to have to fetch the cable and plug it in, but that's just me.

Wouldn't a little program be able to grab the calculator's stack (or just X) and put it into the clipboard when the DM42/41X/... is connected? It would also require a modification of the firmware, with a different option than sharing the USB disk (which currently locks the calculator until it's disconnected). So it may be difficult to add to the current models, but perhaps there's enough space in the flash of the new STM32U5 chip to do that. The calculator's PRINT functions could be used to that effect - I suppose it requires the host mode but I'm not sure - or by demand from the PC by reading from the USB which seems simpler to do.
Pirx
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Pirx »

Just to respond to the point around who needs to use a pocket calculator nowadays: As we all know, there's perfectly capable smartphone emulators available, for just about any calculator model you'd ever be interested on. Since everyone already has a smartphone in their pocket, there's absolutely no need to haul another device around. The only remaining exception is school and college kids, who are not allowed to use smartphones in class and tests. But for a professional, the only reason to prefer the calculator is the physical keyboard, and nothing else. While I wholeheartedly agree with this preference for a physical keyboard over a touchscreen, I will readily admit that, looked at rationally, that's really not enough of a reason to carry the additional device with you. As a consequence, it's been a long time that I have seen an engineer using a pocket calculator anywhere, at the desk or in the field. So, no, as far as I can tell, almost no professionals use physical calculators anymore, let alone constantly.
Garth
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Re: Collection of wishes for future SwissMicros products - discussion following Bob Prosperi's HHC 2022 talk

Post by Garth »

Pirx wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:05 pm
Just to respond to the point around who needs to use a pocket calculator nowadays: [...]
I know I'm a strange bird; but I do not, and will not, use a smartphone, for several reasons. I'm glad SM is continuing where HP left off.
http://WilsonMinesCo.com (Lots of HP-41 links at the bottom of the links page, http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html )
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