Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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dm319
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Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by dm319 »

Hope this is ok to post here. This post isn't about comparative running costs or ecological costs of these types of vehicles, but rather something that is very hard to google for (given those questions).

What is the efficiency of energy conversion between:

petrol/diesel -> motion (in an ICE/internal combustion car) and:

natural gas/coal etc.. -> electricity -> motion (as in an electric/EV car)

My gut feeling is that a natural gas power station will have around a 33% efficiency, a petrol car 25% efficiency and electric -> motion, maybe 80+% efficiency? I guess havent included efficiencies of transferring and storing electricity, but this seems complicated enough.

I find I use a calculator often to calculate range and how much 'fuel' I will have left in an EV car. Which BTW is such an awkward menagerie of units. kWh/100km efficiency, kWh capacity, an in a country that likes to use miles!

I get the feeling I'd get a better answer here than most places.
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dm319
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by dm319 »

In addition... if anyone has any useful equations or programs to help do quick on-the-fly calculations for EVs, I'd love to know them.
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Panchdara
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by Panchdara »

I guess some will tell you the length of a string....

You're asking a question that ONLY a politician can lie thru!

Calcs do quantitative analysis, your question is (abstractly) subjective.

But, that being said, the ICE is, for us mortals, the single most relaible form of transportation... 'lectric is a farce as it is made by destroying minerals and creating untold pollution on the other side of the world, not only that but you gotta spend hours recharging when gas takes minutes. Man-powered (err... person-powered - how dare I be non-PC!) vehicles only add to the petroleum problem as lycra is so gay and oooogly that motorists rev up to announce our presence as a indication of fore-warning... horses, well, horses are smarter than gays in lycra... alot smarter! Perhaps we should, well, let the politicians decide the answer? (They don't listen to proper thought processes of the educated).

(Do you have a 35s to play with yet?)

Your thoughts? πŸ€”πŸ‘
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dm319
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by dm319 »

Panchdara wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:12 pm
I guess some will tell you the length of a string....
Oh dear, this isn't the 'how many controversial things can I say in one post reply' competition! :D

Really don't want to get into the economical costs and environment costs of these methods of transportation, but rather the physics of energy conversion from one type to another. It's impossible to google because 99% of the hits relate to energy costs and CO2 production. How efficient are these electric motors at converting electrical energy to motion? Genuinely curious, and there seem to be many electrical engineer-types around this forum, so maybe they can enlighten me :)
Panchdara wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:12 pm
(Do you have a 35s to play with yet?)
One day I will get a DM42. But I can't quite justify this at the moment, so free42/plus42 will have to suffice!

D
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Panchdara
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by Panchdara »

dm319 wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:20 pm
Panchdara wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:12 pm
I guess some will tell you the length of a string....
Oh dear, this isn't the 'how many controversial things can I say in one post reply' competition! :D
Far from controversional or disrespectful or dismissive (so sorry if that was the reaction)... rather a push (positively) Your query is very intesive. There is a lot of non-parallel comparisons between an ICE and a Scalextric (I had to spell check that! 😏)

The "string" is as long as far it's end. Perhaps ask smilar questions to the Formula (F1?) forums? I'm sure they have Cray/ whatever are the newest supercomputers trying to figure these bits... end of the day, these DM42/DM41, are, well, are just that.... little calcs.

That being said you'l need to have comparative date to quantify/qualify your results. As we all know, GIGO...πŸ‘πŸ‘ (with most honest regards)
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dm319
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by dm319 »

No dismissiveness or disrespect taken :) But it is controversial to say that lycra leads to particular preferences.. :D That is reserved for my motorbike gear solely.

I've done some better googling, and found this article [1]

electric motor : 90%
car engine: 25% (petrol) 20-37% [11]
diesel engine : 40% [2] 30-41% [11]
gas power station : 60% [3]
coal power station : 33% [4]
electricity transfer across country : 94% [5]
battery storage (lithium): 80-90% [6]

The UK uses mainly combined cycle gas power, if I multiply up the losses I get around 43% efficiency from natural gas to car motion in an EV. That's probably worse case scenario, more optimistically approaches 50%. Interesting that that is maybe not too disimilar to a diesel car. This is not meant to be any comment on the environmental impact of EVs vs ICE - afterall doesn't take into account CO2 production, more of a theoretical understanding of energy efficiency. Also it doesn't take into account the efficiency of transporting fuel, which is probably not negligible, but it is too late for me to work this one out.

NB: France is doing great for renewable grid energy [8] by having so many darn nuclear power stations! More than 80% non-carbon producing energy. UK is still mostly fossil fuel at this time in the evening [7]. I find this somewhat incongruent with CO2 per capita of France being 5.13 tonnes, compared to UK 5.55 tonnes [9]. I guess the French are using lots of other sources of energy other than electricity - fuel/oil etc.. Oh, and Netherlands really worse than Germany (9.62 vs 9.44)? I thought Netherlands were powered by windmills and everyone cycled everywhere? Maybe that source is rubbish, though this [10] reference is not too disimilar.

[1] https://personal.ems.psu.edu/~radovic/Chapter4.pdf
[2] https://rentar.com/efficient-engines-th ... fficiency/
[3] http://needtoknow.nas.edu/energy/energy ... tural-gas/
[4] https://www.energy.gov/fecm/science-inn ... sformative
[5] http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost ... your-plug/
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_ener ... #Batteries
[7] https://grid.iamkate.com/
[8] https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix
[9] https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emiss ... y-country/
[10] https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions
[11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency
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Panchdara
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by Panchdara »

These are some very interesting reads indeed but not my area of expertise.

I'm still not convinced about EVs (almost got run down by one in a Tesco parking lot as the car made absolutely no sound). Also, the fact that the current batteries are quite unstable (relative to ICE power sources). We had a TT Zero bike burn in a skip, loaded with salt water, and it was there for over 48 hours... and should there be any serious incident, the bike (EV) is to be kept in a secure (enclosed) facilty for post-mortem... not a wise move. (There was no EV TT this year)

Thanks for those links. They'll be quite informative (although I'll not understand all of it).

On the side note (as you are a motorcycle rider), MGP scrutineering starts Friday and first practice is this Sunday... they don't wear lycra! :roll:

Excellent. Thanks again. πŸ‘
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dm319
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by dm319 »

Yes, those batteries burn for ages unfortunately. There are some definite plusses of EVs - both for convenience and the environment. But there are negatives also. I have diesel family car, an EV car and my petrol bike. The range of the bike and EV is not too dissimilar (~150-200 miles depending on conditions). What I like about the EV is that it is incredibly fast (not bike-fast, but nearly performance car fast) without the expensive fuel bill. Normally with a car you can choose to have something cheaper to run and slow, or a performance car that will make you cry if you do lots of long journeys on it. You can have both on the EV. Another nice thing is that filling it up is really convenient - you just plug it in when you get home. I need to fill up my bike twice a week if I use it every day for commuting, and that's a pain. Downside is mainly the range and terrible charging infrastructure.

Didn't realise there was an EV TT. That lightning 218 bike looked incredibly quick! [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axl0n3R0ZtU
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Panchdara
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by Panchdara »

Yeah, see https://www.visordown.com/news/general/ ... supersport (as an example)

2022, being the first TT since 2019 (Covid hit 2020)... the EV bikes were not raced. BUT they are fast, but not as fast as ICE, and they can only manage 1 lap on a charge, whereas the ICE (Superbikes/sports/stocks/twins) can manage 2 laps/tank, yet they'll do a 4/5 or 6 lap race (37.7+mile lap), the EVs are spent after 1 lap. The outright lap record is Peter Hickman @ 135.45+mph.. until you see on roads (not a track) you'll only have your imagination... these riders seem to grow similarly as the Concorde did! 😲

That being said, this in no way helps your question.

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Garth
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Re: Energy conversion efficiency of EV and ICE cars

Post by Garth »

dm319 wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:54 pm
electricity transfer across country : 94% [5]
That's interesting, since I had previously read that about half the energy is lost in transmission, including going through several transformers, the power radiated into space, and maybe more I'm forgetting, not just the energy lost to heating wires whose resistance is not zero ohms.
http://WilsonMinesCo.com (Lots of HP-41 links at the bottom of the links page, http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html )
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