May 2021 Speculations

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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akaTB
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by akaTB »

vgoudreault wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 10:54 pm
Aren't the "+"and "÷" functions swapped from where they traditionally are on HP and DM calculators -- with the exception of the HP41/DM41X?
They are swapped relative to the 32Sii (and other Pioneers), probably an error in the mockup.
The 41s had them on the other side (the right one ;) ) in the order -+×÷
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-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold
Peet
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by Peet »

Peet wrote: (I'm pretty sure it's a bug/mistake on the rendering)
It is.

EDIT: sorry Peet, I (Emy) made a beginner forum mod mistake and edited your post instead of quoting it. Please post your comments again if you feel necessary.

:oops:

Peet's remark was about the positions of + and ÷ on the prototype video.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(256kB), HP35S, Prime, DM41X, DM42
BruceH
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Re: May 2021 Speculations

Post by BruceH »

Emy wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 6:01 pm
[big snip]
A truly "engineered" font! ;)
Thanks for a great answer. It's nice to know that such close attention is being paid to details. Looking forward to being able to buy one.
rprosperi
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by rprosperi »

vgoudreault wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 10:54 pm
Aren't the "+"and "÷" functions swapped from where they traditionally are on HP and DM calculators -- with the exception of the HP41/DM41X?
All Voyager and Pioneer models use the same locations for the primary math operators on the right side, divide, multiply, subtraction, addition, from top to bottom. All models up to the HP-41 used subtraction addition, multiply and divide on the left side from top to bottom. No explanation/rationale/justification for either layout has ever been found in all the huge amount of HP literature, though their use in all these many models has made them standards for all other latter day RPN products. Except the 43S. Ahem...
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
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Walter
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by Walter »

EDIT: Obviously the following applies to pocket calculators only:
rprosperi wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 4:20 am
All Voyager and Pioneer models use the same locations for the primary math operators on the right side, divide, multiply, subtraction, addition, from top to bottom. All models up to the HP-41 used subtraction addition, multiply and divide on the left side from top to bottom. No explanation/rationale/justification for either layout has ever been found in all the huge amount of HP literature, though their use in all these many models has made them standards for all other latter day RPN products. Except the 43S. Ahem...
(Emphasis added)

While it's true that 'no explanation/rationale/justification ... has ever been found' for the top down sequence subtraction, addition, multiplication and division, all models up from the pioneer HP-35 to the HP-41 placed these operators on the left side below ENTER for ergonomic reasons. This scheme could be applied to the Voyagers no more for obvious reasons - they had to be placed on the right side there. And at the time the Voyagers were developed, numerous other calculator manufacturers had established the sequence addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division (bottom up) as it was and is taught in elementary school. HP adopted this for the Voyagers. Returning to portrait layout with the Pioneers, HP kept this sequence for good reasons; I assume it kept the placement on the right side since all its competition did.

And since you mention the 43S: It returns these operators to the left side below ENTER for ergonomic reasons, in the sequence addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division bottom up as it was and is taught in elementary school.
Last edited by Walter on Sun May 08, 2022 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
Peet
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by Peet »

rprosperi wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 4:20 am
All models up to the HP-41 used subtraction addition, multiply and divide on the left side from top to bottom.
All portait-orientated models in the RPN-era had the arithmetic keys on the left (e.g. HP-67, HP-41) with the RPN typical order, all Landscape Modells (eg. HP-97, HP-11C) on the right side with the mercantile order (like TI Calculators or most Computers). HP changed this when they started to build "AOS" Calculators - varations (AOS/RPN in the same case HP22s/32s) or combinations (e.g. HP48, who can do both).
rprosperi wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 4:20 am
No explanation/rationale/justification for either layout has ever been found in all the huge amount of HP literature, though their use in all these many models has made them standards for all other latter day RPN products. Except the 43S. Ahem...
The most likely explanation is ergonomics. Other then most business calculation machines (with the "+" on the right bottom near the "=") the world's first scientific pocket calculator HP35 uses simply postfix notation (aka RPN/Reverse Polish notation) with a keyboard layout that was optimized for engineers and scientists (more Information about this in the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone - which provides some sort of explanation for the RPN-Key-Layout).
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(256kB), HP35S, Prime, DM41X, DM42
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Walter
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 9:00 am
The most likely explanation is ergonomics. Other then most business calculation machines (with the "+" on the right bottom near the "=") the world's first scientific pocket calculator HP35 uses simply postfix notation (aka RPN/Reverse Polish notation) with a keyboard layout that was optimized for engineers and scientists (more Information about this in the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone - which provides some sort of explanation for the RPN-Key-Layout).
Please allow me two questions:
  1. Can you provide a link to 'the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone', please? I'd appreciate an explanation for the 'RPN key layout' very much (I hope this explanation covers the operator sequence −, +, ×, ÷ top down).
  2. If your argumentation above is true then why do the business models HP-80, HP-70, HP-22, HP-37, and HP-38 show the same sequence −, +, ×, ÷ as the scientific models up to the HP-41?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
Peet
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:30 pm
Please allow me two questions:
  1. Can you provide a link to 'the substantiation for the IEEE Milestone', please?
https://ethw.org/Milestones:Development ... ator,_1972
Walter wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:30 pm
(I hope this explanation covers the operator sequence -, +, ×, ÷ top down).
Not specific but it leads to obvious assumptions or a logic chain.
- the importance Bill Hewlett saw in the key-layout
- designed with the user in mind

addition is used more often in chain calculatons then division
(try to add 100 Numbers with different positions in hight when the arithmetic-keys are left and right - in my opinion you are much faster if it is not at the bottom on the left side, but in the middle of the numberpad, on the right side the classic merchant-order seems more useful)

Fun Fact - when you google a picture search for "engineers calculator" then there are not a few picture where the person holds the calculator with to hands - in this cases a "traditional" RPN Calculators keylayout has benefits (try it yourself)
Walter wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:30 pm
If your argumentation above is true then why do the business models HP-80, HP-70, HP-22, HP-37, and HP-38 show the same sequence -, +, ×, ÷ as the scientific models up to the HP-41?
I can only guess. Maybe the engineers of HP thought that this was also the better key-arrangement for all portrait-RPN-Calculators.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G(256kB), HP35S, Prime, DM41X, DM42
J-F Garnier
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Re: May 2022 Speculations

Post by J-F Garnier »

rprosperi wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 4:20 am
All Voyager and Pioneer models use the same locations for the primary math operators on the right side, divide, multiply, subtraction, addition, from top to bottom. All models up to the HP-41 used subtraction addition, multiply and divide on the left side from top to bottom. No explanation/rationale/justification for either layout has ever been found in all the huge amount of HP literature, though their use in all these many models has made them standards for all other latter day RPN products. Except the 43S. Ahem...
This made me think some time ago and my best guess is that the Voyager models (and later) just followed the numeric keypad layout defined by HP desktop calculators (as they were called). See this document, with the same operator order used since the HP-9100 (1968), and the operator keys moving to the right side very early (1972). A good example of the rationale is the HP-71B, which is at the intersection of the HP calculator and computer worlds.

J-F
Joga
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Re: May 2021 Speculations

Post by Joga »

Emy wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 1:15 pm
CalcFreak wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:38 am
Maybe we could get the title of this thread changed to May 2022 Speculations. :lol:
Yes, indeed. It's been a year — and we haven't been idling. Stay assured we do not neglect our user base. There have been hardships and setbacks, but a new machine is in the works and shows good progress. Enjoy the short video and stay tuned (a little bit longer) for more!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqKYVa3lH6c
Yesyesyes! This is exactly what I hoped for! Can't wait for more details. I hope you adopt the HP-35s method of increasing the number of possible labels (and can have a singe label-letter for an entire program) or something similar to make use of more memory!
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