WP43 Pilot Run (Poll!)

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
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Walter
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by Walter »

dlachieze wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:46 am
rprosperi wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:38 am
I'm having no trouble accessing them, however just to be clear...

On this page:

https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/-/releases
The page reported by redglyph where the links are dead is :

https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/-/wikis/home
Thanks. I had missed that. We shall remove those links there. (It's always important to go side ways to come across errors.)
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
redglyph
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by redglyph »

Walter wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:44 pm
Hardware-wise, we rely on SwissMicros so far.
I know, that wasn't directed at you, I was just being completely honest when I was saying I'd buy it. I'm pretty sure this is sorted out with the new domes (though I haven't had any response from them yet).
Walter wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:44 pm
Thanks for your friendly words. BTW, if you want to see an overloaded keyboard, look at the WP34S - and many users confess they like it.
I know. :) I do like it too, it's grown on me. It was only my first impression, it's somewhat overwhelming at first and it would deserve a few more keys, but I know the hardware is a constraint. I'd rather have 2 shift keys and a little more direct access than everything in menus.
Walter wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:44 pm
x^2 as well as y^x are just 2 keystrokes away, e.g. [EXP] [y^x]. Feel free to suggest a better solution but comply to what's written under Layouting in the ReM, p. B-11, please.
Here's my rationale about it:
  • x^2 is a frequent operation in all domains of science
  • having it in a menu will require the users to leave the menu they're currently in, in order to reach that operation, which may be quite annoying
  • while x^2 can be replaced by a "ENTER multiply", it would consumes one more stack slot and there are only 4 of them
  • other less frequent operations have a direct access, namely MOD, //, the stopwatch (while there's a clock menu on the same key), the a b/c and .d (there's a MODE menu with empty slots). The MOD may be handy now and then, but the // operation must be pretty rare for on average - I'm an engineer in microelectronics and I used it in my first year at university or sometimes when doing a circuit but that's about it. It seems a better target for the user mode than x^2 and other general operations.
My suggestions, alternatives with the preferred one first:
  • Changed keys: EXP, SQRT, 7 - (see my poor attempt at a picture below) move # and BIT to key "7", exchange SQRT and EXP keys (not their "f/g" part), put "x^2" as "f"+"SQRT" (and maybe "y^x" as "g"+"SQRT"?) => this keeps fixed-exponent-like keys 1/x, SQRT, x^2 together, it keeps e^X and EXP together, and keeps binary-related operation and menu #/BIT closer to related MODE, INTS, PART menus and MOD. Or,
  • Changed keys: 7 - add x^2 as "f"+"7" or "f"+"8", simpler modification but it's isolated at a strange place
I couldn't find a reason why 7 was still empty for shift f & g, I assumed you might have potential menus for it too but I don't know. EDIT: and I see now that top "f"-shifted keys are all entry-mode related, which probably goes against my suggestion...

(Actually, I would even put x^2 on the key and SQRT as shifted op, since a square root is often calculated on squared values. But for some reason, except on the latest models, HP has always favoured SQRT over x^2.)
keyb01.png
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Last edited by redglyph on Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
redglyph
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Re: WP 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by redglyph »

Walter wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:31 pm
I can't confirm your last observation though - if and when you click on the manual links (no pun intended) of the release, the manuals will open like a charm. Please try again.
It's working indeed. Sorry, it must have been a temporary glitch.

Now I realize I had downloaded everything from the same "deployments" link anyway.

I'm enjoying the read, those are fine manuals. :)
rprosperi
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by rprosperi »

dlachieze wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:46 am
rprosperi wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:38 am
I'm having no trouble accessing them, however just to be clear...

On this page:

https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/-/releases
The page reported by redglyph where the links are dead is :

https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/-/wikis/home
I understand, that's why I was clarifying where the proper place to find them was, and that the links do work from there, though I guess my clarification was not as clear as it should have been. :)
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
redglyph
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by redglyph »

Since my earlier suggestion may disrupt the entry-related functions, two alternatives:
  • Changed keys: EXP, SQRT, 7 - (picture) swap EXP and SQRT, move "BIT" to "g"+"7", replace by "x^2"
  • Changed keys: EXP, 7 - move "BIT" menu to key "g"+"7", replace by "x^2", simpler change that does not swap keys
keyb02b.png
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Over_score
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by Over_score »

dlachieze wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:46 am
rprosperi wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:38 am
I'm having no trouble accessing them, however just to be clear...

On this page:

https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/-/releases
The page reported by redglyph where the links are dead is :

https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/-/wikis/home
This is fixed.
DM42 SN00284 & SN03835 running C47, HP34C, HP41CV, HP42S, HP35s, WP34S, HP Prime
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Walter
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by Walter »

@All: The link from the wiki to the manuals was repaired 5 hours ago.

@redglyph: See layouting can be eternal fun. Yes in principle one could do as you did, but now, since you came out of the wood, a storm will rise:
  • Didn't you want to bring also y^x to the front? I don't see it. Where did it go?
  • What's the advantage of a g-shifted x^2 on the bezel over an unshifted x^2 in EXP? :?
  • I don't see why we should swap SQRT and EXP.
  • BIT has an obvious relation to # and B so far. Why push it away from there? :?
  • The reason why a primary x^2 is not as popular as you expected is that you can achieve the same via [ENTER] [x]. BTW, when you call EXP, x^2 will be primary. 8-)
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
redglyph
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by redglyph »

Walter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:44 pm
- What's the advantage of a g-shifted x^2 on the bezel over an unshifted x^2 in EXP? :?
- The reason why a primary x^2 is not as popular as you expected is that you can achieve the same via [ENTER] [x]. BTW, when you call EXP, x^2 will be primary. 8-)
In my first post: x^2 not something you want in a menu because it forces the user to quit another menu to reach it. It's an operation used in all fields of science and engineering. And the ENTER MULT work-around consumes one extra stack slot when there aren't many to start with.
Walter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:44 pm
- Didn't you want to bring also y^x to the front? I don't see it. Where did it go?
I would argue that y^x is less frequently used than x^2, so I'm proposing a lighter modification without it to avoid changing too many operations.
Walter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:44 pm
- I don't see why we should swap SQRT and EXP
I will clarify what I wrote in my first post:
- x^2 is usually paired with SQRT on most calculators, that's where one would expect it to be
- it's currently awkward to place x^2 on the SQRT key because of the alpha / alpha.FN that shouldn't be moved (I don't see a better place for it)
- SQRT seems closer to an 1/x and x^2 since they're all constant exponentiations (x^-1, x^0.5, x^2)

Swapping the keys goes around those issues. I would even push EXP and TRI to the right to separate menus from operations: 1/x, SQRT, ln, e^x, TRI, EXP, but that goes beyond the present discussion.
Walter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:44 pm
- BIT has an obvious relation to # and B so far. Why push it away from there? :?
I see your point. On the other hand, integers are very specific for a calculator, to the contrary of the other functions at the top.

Now that your logic of the layout is more clear to me, I need to think more carefully about it. But if I'm the only one missing this operation, I'll just assign it in user mode.
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rudi
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by rudi »

Edit 11/8-22: I have moved this post here: viewtopic.php?p=23650#p23650
Last edited by rudi on Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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Re: 43S Pilot Run (Poll!)

Post by Bill K. - USA »

I consider e^x to be a primary function.

Also sqrt().

And I'd like quick access to y^x, but it doesn't have to be a primary--though I'd like to see it be.

I would like x^2 to be primary, though sqrt() is more important.

Logs and 10^x are less important to me as primary functions.

But I also value consistency of layout across the keyboard.

I fear, though, that with the fixed number of keys and the other design goals, the problem is now over constrained.
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