43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Olivier de Nantes
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Olivier de Nantes »

rprosperi wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:17 pm

I have changed ASN K.PK to ASN KEYS located at the shift [1] position. See below.

I also decided to change the long labels REGS.V and FLAGS.V at the blue shift on [Up] and [Dn], to REGS and FLGS respectively.

[snip]

Any objections?
I agree, these are improvements! Shorter, cleaner, but still easy to understand. The prior names may have been the best options at the time chosen, but this round of simplification is moving in a good direction.

While it's certainly true that someone new to the machine may not assume that REGS means 'Register Viewer', frankly that's probably the 100th or so thing such a new user may wonder about just dabling with it, while a user that has studied the machine will surely recall what it's for.
+1

And I think that, when you learn how to use a news calculator, it is quite easy to take into account new symbols. So, it's fine for me
Olivier de Nantes (Bretagne)


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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:17 pm
I have changed ASN K.PK to ASN KEYS located at the shift [1] position. See below.

I also decided to change the long labels REGS.V and FLAGS.V at the blue shift on [Up] and [Dn], to REGS and FLGS respectively.

...

The reason for these changes now, is reconsideration from a graphical layout perspective, to have more visual impact, less clutter and a clean and low distraction visual result. @Inautilus is continuing to do a sterling job and we are working the layout very hard for the last few weeks.

Any objections?

...

No objections, the l.p. ;)
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RAPo
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RAPo »

no problem.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Thanks for the confirmation. Those three changes KEYS, REGS and FLGS are in progress on the template.

I have another change to propose from the very stable layout on the top 3 rows and I want comments please.

First, let me explain the reason for fiddling with something that works:

The 43C has a built in way to change to two shift button operation using the KEYS profiles. The DM42 key template hints to those shift buttons by having the coloured lines below COS and TAN. These lines talk to the U_SHFT KEYS pack. The point of the U_SHFT pack is, that COS works as [f] and [TAN] works as [g] while SIN works as TRIG (hence the white line underneath SIN).

The yellow and blue labels at the shifts disappear, except for the blue label at SIN that stays. On the old layout that meant that >P and RTN would disappear, and I hate asymmetry, and, I like the top lines to be almost math only, so it bothered me for long that >P & >R would disappear.

The point of the reshuffling is to prevent >R and >P to disappear when U_SHFT is selected. RTN and LBL are moved to these positions where they will disappear if a user chooses shift mode. Both RTN and LBL are placed in the 43C P.FN menu anyway.

See the simulator pics below, showing the issue and the proposed change. In my mind the only disadvantage is x-root-y that does not share a key with y^x anymore. Not ideal, but the increase in usability and flexibility outweighs the position of x-root-y.

I welcome bright ideas to find an even better solution.
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Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

One question; I think with KEYS mode "U SHFT" will on f[SIN], as already introduced, additionally be 'USER'?
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:29 am
One question; I think with KEYS mode "U SHFT" will on f[SIN], as already introduced, additionally be 'USER'?
Very sharp observation ... it shows I cannot just change things ;-)

I removed that specific USER at f[SIN], thinking that we always have USER at f[2], as well as USER at the Σ+ button which operates in both NORMAL mode and in USER mode.

I can easily put it back (I removed it by commenting in the code). It is no problem to put it back - but there must be no bezel printing for this - it is like a hidden Easter egg.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Wait, now another Easter egg has come to my mind, it will be Easter soon.
'DUMP', sorry, I mean 'SNAP', of course. Not that I really need it, I prefer the platform trick, but why not.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

I'll be blunt. I don't get this two-shift operation. I don't see myself ever using this feature of the WP43C, so no problem for me, but it causes some problems (on the calculator, maybe not the emulator):

It takes away assignable slots, two (or one, if we do as the WP43S does) labels from the [SIN] and [COS] keys + our yellow shift key and its two possible labels which are rendered obsolete.

That's 5 or 7 opportunities lost.

Plus it invalidates parts of the user interface, even requiring extra printing on the faceplate, with adds to the entropy there.

Plus it creates the need as you mention in your post to rearrange labels. In my mind, what we're changing was just about perfect.

If we could change faceplates (and keys) as we can on the emulator, I'd get it, but now I feel that we're compromising our way away from perfection.

The consequence is adding even more easter eggs, more things to remember, more to muscle memorize, more visual stuff to deal with on the faceplate. Three keys will have the wrong text printed on them, two of them the wrong labels above them, etc.

I am of course biased by having no need for that separate g shift key at all, but any gain comes at a significantly higher cost - in my personal view.

Do we really want to go there?

PS: As I was typing this on my iPad, I got conscious of how to activate CAPS LOCK on the on-screen keyboard. Guess what - double press the shift key (albeit within a time limit). It's not just us... :-)
Last edited by H2X on Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:18 am
Wait, now another Easter egg has come to my mind, it will be Easter soon.
'DUMP', sorry, I mean 'SNAP', of course. Not that I really need it, I prefer the platform trick, but why not.
;-)

I also prefer the platform trick Shift-E as is done on the DM42 proper, and the DM41X, but what is even more is I strongly dislike the double shift f[g] and g[f] operations of the WP43S due to false presses.

But, if there is a real need for this (if I get three more requests here) to add g[f] and f[g] as a KEYS pack option for SNAP and USER, I will copy the 43S code to do that and add it as a pack.

In my opinion though, the SIN/COS/TAN vs. TRIG/f/g replacement can still work without a dedicated TRIG/F/G label template with the hints of colour, despite the words SIN/COS/TAN does not disappear from the keys. But multiple hidden labels for USER and SNAP is a bit much to remember.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
I'll be blunt. I don't get this two-shift operation. I don't see myself ever using this feature of the WP43C, so no problem for me, but it causes some problems (on the calculator, maybe not the emulator):

It takes away assignable slots, two (or one, if we do as the WP43S does) labels from the [SIN] and [COS] keys + our yellow shift key and its two possible labels which are rendered obsolete.

That's 5 or 7 opportunities lost.

Plus it invalidates parts of the user interface, even requiring extra printing on the faceplate, with adds to the entropy there.

Plus it creates the need as you mention in your post to rearrange labels. In my mind, what we're changing was just about perfect.

If we could change faceplates (and keys) as we can on the emulator, I'd get it, but now I feel that we're compromising our way away from perfection.

The consequence is adding even more easter eggs, more things to remember, more to muscle memorize, more visual stuff to deal with on the faceplate. Three keys will have the wrong text printed on them, two of them the wrong labels above them, etc.

I am of course biased by having no need for that separate g shift key at all, but any gain comes at a significantly higher cost - in my personal view.

Do we really want to go there?

PS: As I was typing this on my iPad, I got conscious of how to activate CAPS LOCK on the on-screen keyboard. Guess what - double press the shift key (albeit within a time limit). It's not just us... :-)

Let me put it this way. There are good reasons for having 'a b/c' and '#' right next to each other. '.d' and '.ms' belong next to each other, too, somehow. If you now find '->R' and '->P' on the same key line you can consider this as progress.

"xth root of y" on g[SIN] hurts me too.

I myself doubted very early on in this thread the necessity of having 'LBL' and 'RTN' on one of the rare g-function positions of the top two lines. I expect these functions in the menu 'P.FN'. In this respect it does not bother me if 'LBL' finds another place.

But I agree, just to perfect the KEYS mode "U SHFT" we should not make native WP41C layout worse.

More voices?
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