43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:59 pm

H2X wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:54 pm
Nigel (UK) wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:00 pm
To me it seems logical to have sigma-minus as the function of the leftmost menu key in no-menu mode, but to make the key reconfigurable like the sigma-plus key below it. Personally I'd like x! there, but allowing it to be configured would be great.

Nigel (UK)
Sigma-minus seems an obvious contender, if the space is available. Is the rightmost key still also up for grabs?
I want to move pi to FN6 which makes available the reconfigurable top left FN1. That means I drop the x√y which is currently there.

What is your idea for FN6?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:29 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:59 pm
H2X wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:54 pm
Nigel (UK) wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:00 pm
To me it seems logical to have sigma-minus as the function of the leftmost menu key in no-menu mode, but to make the key reconfigurable like the sigma-plus key below it. Personally I'd like x! there, but allowing it to be configured would be great.

Nigel (UK)
Sigma-minus seems an obvious contender, if the space is available. Is the rightmost key still also up for grabs?
I want to move pi to FN6 which makes available the reconfigurable top left FN1. That means I drop the x√y which is currently there.

What is your idea for FN6?
I had x! in mind because Nigel brought it up, but no strong opinion on my part.

BTW, I am not entirely sure about sigma-minus - it sort of doesn't make sense. I don't remember using it much either, truth be told.

It seems like the point with it is to be able to cancel an element previously added by sigma-plus, but since you get to choose any value you want which might not be in the dataset in the first place, you also get to screw up your data even more.

It is what it is, but seems crude on a sophisticated machine like this. There should be a way to view the entries as a list (or a frequency map), and remove (or adjust) any actual elements entered by mistake from there instead.
Last edited by H2X on Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:58 pm

H2X wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:29 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:59 pm
H2X wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:54 pm


Sigma-minus seems an obvious contender, if the space is available. Is the rightmost key still also up for grabs?
I want to move pi to FN6 which makes available the reconfigurable top left FN1. That means I drop the x√y which is currently there.

What is your idea for FN6?
I had x! in mind because Nigel brought it up, but no strong opinion on my part.

BTW, I am not entirely sure about sigma-minus - it sort of doesn't make sense. I don't remember using it much either, truth be told.

It seems like the point with it is to be able to cancel a element previously added by sigma-plus, but since you get to choose any value you want which might not be in the dataset in the first place, you also get to screw up your data even more.

It is what it is, but seems crude on a sophisticated machine like this. There should be a way to view the entries as a list, and remove any actual elements entered by mistake from there instead.

I do not have a need for the Σ-, except for the symmetry. The only advantage is on the no template DM42 version (which is very important to me), the yellow text is already written on the DM42, together with FN2-FN5 text too. So might as well stick with the layout there. And I do not want the layouts to differ unnecessarily because the HOME menu which is the same in both layouts, also reflects that top row.

Σ- in all traditional calculators simply does the opposite of Σ+, i.e. it reduces the cumulative STAT sums accordingly. In traditional calcs, the actual data points are never kept, so it is just the totals that gets adjusted, and it is not a trainsmash if your original point is not there. The problem, would come with my PLOT function where I actually remember 400 points. What to do if the user uses Σ- and the point to be removed cannot be found. I do not know. At the moment it does nothing to the graph data.

For x!, I do see it as a valid option in the K.PK menu, to set FN1 to x!.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

rprosperi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:17 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:58 pm
[snip]
The problem, would come with my PLOT function where I actually remember 400 points. What to do if the user uses Σ- and the point to be removed cannot be found. I do not know. At the moment it does nothing to the graph data.
As long as there is a way for the user to view the entered data points, to verify his/her data and identify an erroneous entry to remove (perhaps pressed wrong key, etc.), then if the entry provided to Σ- for removal cannot be found, then beep/error/show msg etc. but do not remove anything. User can repeat request until he/she enters a valid point.

If there is no way to view the data points, then.... hmm.... well, there must be, otherwise there's no reason to save the points, right?
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071, DM10L: 071/100

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:22 pm

rprosperi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:17 pm
As long as there is a way for the user to view the entered data points, to verify his/her data and identify an erroneous entry to remove (perhaps pressed wrong key, etc.), then if the entry provided to Σ- for removal cannot be found, then beep/error/show msg etc. but do not remove anything. User can repeat request until he/she enters a valid point.
Please remember Σ+ and Σ- may be used for various tasks, not only statistics.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

rprosperi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:17 pm

Walter wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:22 pm
rprosperi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:17 pm
As long as there is a way for the user to view the entered data points, to verify his/her data and identify an erroneous entry to remove (perhaps pressed wrong key, etc.), then if the entry provided to Σ- for removal cannot be found, then beep/error/show msg etc. but do not remove anything. User can repeat request until he/she enters a valid point.
Please remember Σ+ and Σ- may be used for various tasks, not only statistics.
Interesting.

According to the Ref. manual (I did check first), the only function "Σ-" performs is "Subtracts one 2D data point from the statistical
sums." As Jaco has modified the storage of data points for WP43C, storing all the individual data points, it seems it makes more sense to not remove incorrect data than to 'subtract' an invalid data point if it was not actually entered, doesn't it?

What other tasks is Σ- used for?

And what do you suggest should be done if the user tries to remove an invalid data point?
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071, DM10L: 071/100

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:49 pm

rprosperi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:17 pm
Walter wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:22 pm
rprosperi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:17 pm
As long as there is a way for the user to view the entered data points, to verify his/her data and identify an erroneous entry to remove (perhaps pressed wrong key, etc.), then if the entry provided to Σ- for removal cannot be found, then beep/error/show msg etc. but do not remove anything. User can repeat request until he/she enters a valid point.
Please remember Σ+ and Σ- may be used for various tasks, not only statistics.
Interesting.

According to the Ref. manual (I did check first), the only function "Σ-" performs is "Subtracts one 2D data point from the statistical
sums." As Jaco has modified the storage of data points for WP43C, storing all the individual data points, it seems it makes more sense to not remove incorrect data than to 'subtract' an invalid data point if it was not actually entered, doesn't it?
As you say, I do like the idea of checking of Σ- actually matching the point to be removed from the data set, only removing it and reducing the sums if found, otherwise beeping. I've been pondering this for a while. I think plotting and maintaining a data table is more useful than the occasional 2D vector work, which I routinely do a lot more effectively in complex math, complete with angles, in polar mode, with easy conversions, easy scalar multiplication, etc.

About the data points, at this point I am not planning to list the points in the calculator, mainly because making a point browser is an effort I do not want to do. I'm thinking of rather automatically storing after each Σ+ entry, each value pair in a text file on the main drive, that way, your data is automatically stored and available on disk when you would need it.

(This part is not ready to be written as yet, as the complication is that the calculator has all the sums in non-volatile memory and the points in volatile memory, which is not ideal. When I figure out how to manage the STAT sums being remembered, while the corresponding data points are forgotten, but on the drive, I can do that. I am a bit worried about synchronism).

rprosperi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:17 pm
What other tasks is Σ- used for?

And what do you suggest should be done if the user tries to remove an invalid data point?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:48 am

H2X wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:29 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:59 pm
H2X wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:54 pm


Sigma-minus seems an obvious contender, if the space is available. Is the rightmost key still also up for grabs?
I want to move pi to FN6 which makes available the reconfigurable top left FN1. That means I drop the x√y which is currently there.

What is your idea for FN6?
I had x! in mind because Nigel brought it up, but no strong opinion on my part.

...
+1


Long answer: If I use PI often the position on f[RDown] will be "hardwired" in my brain, I would never get the idea to press F1 or F6. So you could free x! from a menu and generally set it to F6.
DM42 SN:00032

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:08 am

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:49 pm
About the data points, at this point I am not planning to list the points in the calculator...
What about a frequency "map" where each pair consists of a given value and the number of occurences of that value, e,g, in a 2 column grid. Might that be useful?

In such a view, sigma-plus and sigma-minus might be used to increment / decrement the count of a highlighted value.
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:49 pm
... mainly because making a point browser is an effort I do not want to do.
The beauty is that "whovever" wants it more might. :-)
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

Nigel (UK)
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Nigel (UK) » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:45 am

The other main use for sigma-plus and minus is for adding and subtracting lists of real numbers using sum-x, or complex numbers / 2D vectors, using sum-x and sum-y. On modern calculators there are other ways to do this, but I expect that quite a few people are in the habit of working this way.

I'm sure I remember a problem involving tomato numbers and costs that was worked using this technique from one of the early HP manuals!

Nigel (UK)

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