43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by inautilus » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:01 pm

Adjusted prominence to align with the f/g key's function and ease of locating
f g alternate png  bold.jpg
f g alternate png bold.jpg (104.78 KiB) Viewed 989 times
Last edited by inautilus on Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:16 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:50 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:30 am
Suggestion: I think you can rename DRG-> to TRANS(mute). I think that's what's being done here. Then R<- and ->P would be well lifted here again, like the 42S.
I think DRG-> can have a name change. I don't like TRANS though. Let's consider what we have:

The HP42S has CONV which does the degrees to rad conversion thing. But the 43S already has a CONV button, which does unit conversions.

I suggest that I change the unit conversions to [UNIT] and the deg>rad>grad>multi to [CONV].
So, [f][5] will then be UNIT, and [g][5] will be CONV.
How does that sound?
That makes sense to me. Maybe you will exchange UNIT and CONV, but that doesn't bother me.
Wish: Here I argue in the other direction. Even though you can solve LASTx via RCL L, I want to have LASTx directly on one button, old habits. I often use LASTx, RDOWN for example mostly only in programs.
My opinion does not matter because I cannot add functions to the main project, and a Last x function on a button would need a new function which I can't add at this point. |(My opinion is I would like a button for last x).
I was afraid of that. I haven't looked into the code yet. Then it is not easy to put a wrapper over RCL L.
Another urgent wish: Whenever there is a function and a menu on the shift keys, I would prefer to have the function always on f and the menu on g, even if the original functionality of the 42S would change from f() to g(). That wouldn't bother me at all. An example. With the 42S, the CLX is hidden in the CLEAR menu. If you want to cancel the number input because you find out that you are typing wrong, I don't have direct access to the CLX, as it still is with the 41C. I think the "Undo" function would behave like the CLX in such a situation, and you could easily reach it via f(<-).
I though about this one for a while and I mentioned that it is difficult for me to H2X before. I am finding [g][UNDO] difficult to handle.

I though of making [g] [UNDO] and I will reconsider it again after I can feel this one on the real calculator. I shift this issue to the 'to check later' list.
Thank you for checking to see if it makes sense to do this ( [f] [UNDO] on "<-" ) if you can test the effects.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:21 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Me again. I just read that you use FILL a lot. A possible keyboard configuration that could implement my suggestions compatible with your requirements:

f(COMPLEX), g(FILL ) to "ENTER".
f(LASTx), g(STK) to "x<>y".
f(DROP), g(MODE) to "CHS".
f(CNST), g(DISP) to "EEX", for symmetry reasons and probably because constants are used more often than switching the display.
f(<-|), g(CLR) to "<-" as already explained.

Under "Loss" of R<-, ->P and x!
Checking your list above, I find your suggestion is:

Code: Select all

 
COMPLEX  FILL      LASTx  STK      DROP MODE     CNST  DISP    UNDO  CLR
   blank
   blank
- I assume R< >P to the arrow keys, even though you say it is lost.
- Since at this time, I cannot do single key LASTx, I assume x! on [f][X<>Y].

Code: Select all

COMPLEX  FILL      x!  STK      DROP MODE     CNST  DISP    UNDO  CLR
   R<
   >P
instead of

Code: Select all

COMPLEX  DROP     R<  >P   MODE x!    DISP  CNST   CLR  UNDO
   FILL
   STK

I feel your plan to clear the stack ops from the arrows can work. I really like the R< >P though, and I don't want to lose it from the keys (to a menu only). So the benefit for changing it around on your pattern is not immense.

I want to test this on the actual calculator, I mean the swapping from [f] to [g] of MODE DISP & CLR. I take the point and will test this later. So to my list.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:29 pm

inautilus wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:56 pm
Sorry about the poor resolution ... try this.
What a nice solution !!

Really like it.

For the template on the real calculator of course, as I don't yet know how to put non-buttons on the emulator "backplate".

The actual button on DM42 is yellow, not brown as in the mockup. So the yellow part of the yellow/blue border may disappear and look unbalanced. So my choice for the real calc would be either no border around the button or yellow

The button on the emulator is also yellow, and at this point I don't really want to go figure out how to change those defaults. Also I think we should rather emulate the actual DM42 colours, i.e. yellow shift.

Maybe the dot's is the breakthrough, not the border, so the the answer may be to keep it compact and simple.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

Dani R.
Posts: 285
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:35 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:21 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Me again. I just read that you use FILL a lot. A possible keyboard configuration that could implement my suggestions compatible with your requirements:

f(COMPLEX), g(FILL ) to "ENTER".
f(LASTx), g(STK) to "x<>y".
f(DROP), g(MODE) to "CHS".
f(CNST), g(DISP) to "EEX", for symmetry reasons and probably because constants are used more often than switching the display.
f(<-|), g(CLR) to "<-" as already explained.

Under "Loss" of R<-, ->P and x!
- I assume R< >P to the arrow keys, even though you say it is lost.
- Since at this time, I cannot do single key LASTx, I assume x! on [f][X<>Y].

Code: Select all

COMPLEX  FILL      x!  STK      DROP MODE     CNST  DISP    UNDO  CLR
   R<
   >P

I feel your plan to clear the stack ops from the arrows can work. I really like the R< >P though, and I don't want to lose it from the keys (to a menu only). So the benefit for changing it around on your pattern is not immense.

...
Yeah, I know, it's not a big win anymore. This shows, I think, that the alternative layout is almost reached.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:38 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:29 pm
inautilus wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:56 pm
Sorry about the poor resolution ... try this.
What a nice solution !!

...

Maybe the dot's is the breakthrough, not the border, so the the answer may be to keep it compact and simple.
+1
DM42 SN:00032

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:06 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:38 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:29 pm
inautilus wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:56 pm
Sorry about the poor resolution ... try this.
What a nice solution !!

...

Maybe the dot's is the breakthrough, not the border, so the the answer may be to keep it compact and simple.
+1
+2

I was just too lazy to write it. I concur with Jaco's reasoning, button is yellow, border is a) not needed, and b) noisy (in this context - the idea by itself is excellent!)

I think it is nice if f/g could be printed on the actual key on the calculator, but I don't expect that to happen. Still, I don't think the lack of explicit f and g references are critical. They could be implied, and keystroke sequences in documentation and on the web could be easily written out like

SHIFT [KEY]

and

SHIFT SHIFT [KEY]

I think this eagle has landed. Well done, everybody! :D
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:11 pm

There is something poetic ;-) about Dani's suggestion to move the R< >P to the arrow keys to get stack stuff tightly grouped.

I'm fiddling all our last discussions onto the emulator layout, and will include [f] FILL [g] STK on [X<>Y] to try it out. The more I look at it the more I like it.

The layout soon...
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm

I'm sorry H2X, the eagle is doing another quick round before tranquility ;-)

I condensed the discussions to the following changes.

Note that some changes below were done as tests, and we possibly need the hardware first before we can finally settle.

Done:

101. Swapped HOME & SAVE
102. Changed REGS and STATUS to RG.ST and BT.ST.
102a. I also tried REG.ST and BIT.ST, but it really makes the line full.
102b. I also tried R.ST and B.ST but after a while I start wondering what is R. And B.
102c. Another option is RG.BR and BT.BR close to the original RBR Register Browser.
103. Added INFO to HOME menu
104. Added CLSTK to HOME menu for easy access. This leads the question if I still need FILL.
105. Name change: unit conversions (CONV) became [g] UNIT
106. Name change: deg>rad/etc (DRG>) became [f] CONV

107. Swapped FILL and STK with R< and >P (on the arrows) to group the stack ops. And the cost is only R and P vertically arranged on the stack. This is a test.

108. Swapped MODE, DISP & CLR to blue. I carefully tried both ways, and this sits better. This was mostly after realising Dani is right, in that my mouse finger starts double clicking if I think of a menu to access. This is a test - let's see.

Todo:

201. Fix keyboard key shortcuts on the emulator broken due to layout change
202. Fix Alpha key layout and menus that is broken due to layout change

——
Wish list:

301. Find more mat candidates for the HOME menu

302. Put LastX on HOME menu, if not on button. Could take the place of x! On “L”.

303. Add SigFig mode as per WP31S, 34S, 34C: https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/archive/ ... -3029.html

304. To consider the need for HEX DEC OCT BIN on a menu (compare with # operation).

305. Ideas for a calculator name. Maybe WP43C. C for classic of course, and it fits into the model names/numbers.

306. Add Name and version number etc. in INFO.

---
To re-consider later:

401. Consider changing back to yellow for MODE, DISP & CLR

402. Consider FILL and STK back to R< and >P

—-
Remember for actual calc layout:

501. Type Lx for Last x
502. Add yellow and blue dots above shift button


The latest image.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by inautilus » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:38 pm

Jaco yellow fg key.jpg
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Last edited by inautilus on Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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