43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 644
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:48 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:27 pm
What do you mean with [CLX/A]?
I have removed CLSTK from F6 because I added CLSTK to the long press CLR, and I wanted the top part of the calculator for more direct math.
These are things that we have already mentioned. If you are in NIM you can't call CLX/A just like that ( on the HP-41C this function is on f[BSP]). I had thought that if F6 is free, you can find this function there. But actually I got used to cancel the NIM with EXIT a long time ago and afterwards the key [BSP] has the functionality CLX.
I understand now. I am not familiar with the 41C terminology. So we agree to not labour the f[BSP] thing?

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:08 am
Now to the layout itself. Theoretically the "empty" use of the function keys F1..F6 should never happen. Here I have not yet formed a final opinion whether labels are useful here.
Let me explain my need for the white functions in a 'no menu' situation. I use my physical 43C very often in my workplace, and often I need a basic RPN calculator only with complex number math, trigonometry, R<>P, |x| and angle, squares and roots. I often set my calculator to SIG 3, DSTACK 3, and I remove all menus and I can go about whole day at work without needing one menu. I like that. For that reason I want the clutter free screen with 3 lines XYZ only, and all the functions I need on the keyboard. All of that is in the basic 43C without menus.

Is there any other calculator out there with all these functions on the keyboard? And the majority unshifted?

About your point that it should never happen to have a no menu screen:
Our settings at the moment does not allow for enough options. At the moment the settings is a CheckBox in CFG which says "HOME". This is for the base menu but is not yet implemented. If the setting is set, then there will be no empty screen, and H|OME will always be the lowest level menu. If it is not set, then MyMenu will do that (once MyMenu is done by 43S).

That does not allow for the status quo now, i.e. to have the no menu blank screen. To do that I need another setting as follows: This can be solved easily by changing the existing CheckBox ‘HOME’, to a radiobutton with 'HOME/MyMenu/Blank' options. This way, the different user needs can be set per user. The difference between these 3 are only what happens when you press EXIT repeatedly. It either stays on HOME, or it stays on MyMenu, or blanks.


Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:48 pm
I think it's overkill to have xth root from y on F6. Maybe X! after all. Or there will be more opinions, here have been a lot of ideas implemented soon after arrival.
mmm.
Let's hear some opinions.

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:27 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:08 am
Do we still need the Caps Lock on [SIN]? The cursor keys work quite well with regard to this functionality.
I do not mind either, but I agree both is an overkill. My preference is the caps lock, but what say others?
I tested the caps lock vs. up/dn changing menus and case, again, and both work well. (That is after I fixed a bug in my code which prevented case change when AlphaHOME is open).

At this point I will keep both methods, as they do not interfere with one another, until I get more comments on who prefers which.
Last edited by Jaymos on Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
User avatar
H2X
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:25 pm
Your reference to "to make the WP43C overlay compatible with the WP43S, which might also make programs interchangeable between them" makes me think that you refer to the HP style keyboard mapping for programmability, which would be deemed broken if the keys do not correspond between calculators. Is that what you referred to or am I missing it?
If one wanted to run a program created on the WP43S on the WP43C, I assume the following might apply:
  • If the programming steps are stored in terms of actual keys pressed, the program would not work out of the box. It could be made to work, but I don't see the viability of this.
  • If the programming steps are stored in terms of what the key presses represent, the program should work out of the box on the WP43C
  • If the program relies on custom key assignments on the WP43S, AND the user has created a keyboard overlay, that same program might be runnable on the WP43C, but the WP43S keyboard overlay would not match the keys - unless they were remapped. Which is what I was referring to.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:25 pm
Either way, the introduction of these separate f and g keys in USER mode was not done to maintain programming compatibility, rather to offer yet another way of accessing the f and g shifts from an interactive user experience point of view. Personally I love it on the emulator, where the actual keys are changed. With my new template, I hope to be able to report back if the yellow and blue borders work as well in USER mode "U SHFT".

I strongly believe more options to access the same things in the calculator are good. In the same way I offer multiple ways of accessing functions, like the HOME menu gives different access to the same functions arranged by functional type menus, like CPX, EXP, BASE, ...., also like the white no menu keys on top. In the end I like those options to enable you to use whichever way that suits you best. I repeat most functions on keyboard also in menus, where 43S in most (if not all) cases does not repeat functions on the keyboard in menus: Think of their square, square root, DROP, etc.
Firstly, being the culprit behind the weird idea for the single, cycling, and lately long-press shift key, there should be no surprise that it makes perfect sense to me and that I am totally happy with it. I don't think I'll ever think to look elsewhere for ways to access shifted options. :-)

Secondly, I find the HOME menus a slightly different beast, more like collections of favourite items than menus. They are also entirely "soft" things by their nature.

To me, repetition makes all the sense in the world in the HOME menus, but I personally don't see the need in terms a redundance of shift keys. But if you do, I have no problem with it, whatsoever.
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 644
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

H2X wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:41 pm
To me, repetition makes all the sense in the world in the HOME menus, but I personally don't see the need in terms a redundance of shift keys. But if you do, I have no problem with it, whatsoever.
👍
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
User avatar
H2X
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:14 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:48 pm
I think it's overkill to have xth root from y on F6. Maybe X! after all. Or there will be more opinions, here have been a lot of ideas implemented soon after arrival.
mmm.
Let's hear some opinions.
Remind me about the # on g[SQRT(x)]?
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
Dani R.
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 10:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

H2X wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:50 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:42 pm
The Shift key is in good hands there, it belongs there, the whole thing is thought through to the end. :mrgreen:
So thought I, right until I became aware of the USER mode with the S style shifts... Are they still warranted? Was my guess about layout compatibility correct? Am I missing something?
I think that with this USER mode with the S style shift keys even motor challenged people will finally get access to the WP43C. Or also people who refuse the double touch of the shift key for calling the G-functions/menus. (Not to mention the operations with Long Press and Double Click for the function keys, which then not be need to learned.)

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:30 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:03 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:32 pm
g[1/x], g[ENTER]
Nailed!
I actually like this a lot more. Well done Dani!
And I thought the layout was stable ...
I apologize for that. This is what happens when a HiRes printout is inspected more precise.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:14 pm
I am not familiar with the 41C terminology. So we agree to not labour the f[BSP] thing?
Yes, xth root of y can stay at F6. Or you can leave it completely free. Or you can find another function. Or you can set PI to F6 and then have F1 free for something you can also set to Sigma+ (USER, PRGM, ALPHA).
DM42 SN:00032
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 644
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

H2X wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:46 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:14 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:48 pm
I think it's overkill to have xth root from y on F6. Maybe X! after all. Or there will be more opinions, here have been a lot of ideas implemented soon after arrival.
mmm.
Let's hear some opinions.
Remind me about the # on g[SQRT(x)]?
# was placed on the second row, second button by 43S in a yellow sequence of a/bc, #, d.ms, .d, h.ms, which are all commands to change display properties of numbers. I moved all those same items to blue, because our yellows were to be as per 42S. Later on I made .ms and I removed d.ms to place it in the MODE menu with the other angle mode changers DEG, RAD ... and then the space became available for xth root of y, which was placed on g[sqrt].

Changing them around meant that:
1. #, .d and .ms now sit next to one another
2. xth-root-of-y sits directly next to y^x which makes more sense
3. there is no math function directly in between # (integers) and .d (reals)
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
User avatar
H2X
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:35 am
I think that with this USER mode with the S style shift keys even motor challenged people will finally get access to the WP43C. Or also people who refuse the double touch of the shift key for calling the G-functions/menus. (Not to mention the operations with Long Press and Double Click for the function keys, which then not be need to learned.)
I just want to point out, for the record and any potential readers who are put off by it, that the only thing that really has to be learned about the yellow [SHIFT] key on the WP43C is the following fundamental cycle:
  • One normal press to activate the f shift mode.
  • One normal press to activate the g shift mode.
  • One normal press to return to unshifted mode.
One more thing - the cycle resets if you wait too long (≈ 5 seconds) before completing the shifted operation.

These are executed as perfectly normal single presses. There is no double or triple click here (anybody familiar with a computer mouse knows the difference between single, double, and triple clicks).

Everything else are easter eggs and shortcuts for the benefit of those who find them, and find them worthwhile to remember.

Just saying, in case anybody thinks the [SHIFT] key operation is too complicated to give the WP43C a go.

But, as already stated, I have no quarrel with the additional USER mode shifts!
Last edited by H2X on Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 644
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

H2X wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:16 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:35 am
I think that with this USER mode with the S style shift keys even motor challenged people will finally get access to the WP43C. Or also people who refuse the double touch of the shift key for calling the G-functions/menus. (Not to mention the operations with Long Press and Double Click for the function keys, which then not be need to learned.)
I just want to point out, for the record and any potential readers who are put off by it, that the only thing that really has to be learned about the yellow [SHIFT] key on the WP43C is the following fundamental cycle:
  • One normal press to activate the f shift mode.
  • One normal press to activate the g shift mode.
  • One normal press to return to unshifted mode.
One more thing - the cycle resets if you wait too long (≈ 5 seconds) before completing the shifted operation.

These are executed as perfectly normal single presses. There is no double or triple click here (anybody familiar with a computer mouse knows the difference between single, double, and triple clicks).

Everything else are easter eggs for the benefit of those who find them, and find them worthwhile to remember.

Just saying, in case anybody thinks the [SHIFT] key operation is too complicated to give the WP43C a go.
Thanx.
I took this text and put it as the first paragraph under "18. f and g shift operations" in the document.
J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 10:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

H2X wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:16 am
I just want to point out, for the record and any potential readers who are put off by it, that the only thing that really has to be learned about the yellow [SHIFT] key on the WP43C is the following fundamental cycle:
  • One normal press to activate the f shift mode.
  • One normal press to activate the g shift mode.
  • One normal press to return to unshifted mode.
One more thing - the cycle resets if you wait too long (≈ 5 seconds) before completing the shifted operation.

These are executed as perfectly normal single presses. There is no double or triple click here (anybody familiar with a computer mouse knows the difference between single, double, and triple clicks).
That's exactly what it is. But if the 4 seconds timeout (automatic cycle reset) is much too fast for someone, she/he can also switch it off completely in the configuration. At the moment the default is set to switch it on.
DM42 SN:00032
User avatar
H2X
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:28 am
H2X wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:16 am
I just want to point out, for the record and any potential readers who are put off by it, that the only thing that really has to be learned about the yellow [SHIFT] key on the WP43C is the following fundamental cycle:
  • One normal press to activate the f shift mode.
  • One normal press to activate the g shift mode.
  • One normal press to return to unshifted mode.
One more thing - the cycle resets if you wait too long (≈ 5 seconds) before completing the shifted operation.

These are executed as perfectly normal single presses. There is no double or triple click here (anybody familiar with a computer mouse knows the difference between single, double, and triple clicks).
That's exactly what it is. But if the 4 seconds timeout (automatic cycle reset) is much too fast for someone, she/he can also switch it off completely in the configuration. At the moment the default is set to switch it on.
Precisely!

And since there is only one shift key involved, I personally find it super easy to locate and operate it with my left thumb, while eyeing the target key all the time. No need to relocate the target key because my eyes wandered to locate and operate the appropriate SHIFT key. The only key I can't see is the on / off / exit key, but that I don't need to look to find. My left thumb knows where it is.

I find this super duper ergonomical, but of course I know full well that I'm biased.
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
Post Reply