43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:03 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:56 am
@Jaco, I am just thinking out loud, but might a possible outcome of this effort be a way that people could easily create their own favorite layouts?

You were talking about making the code available. Seems what would be needed is the ability to clone your code, build images for the calculator, and manufacture faceplates.
Everyone can roll his own layout. It is a mission though, as there are if's and but's all over in the code.
Yes, code will be available as per GPL rules.
Any work as you suggest is possible by anyone.
Remember, that is exactly what I did - took the code from the main project which is open as per GPL, and modified it.
Anyone can do that.

The latter might be interesting for people programming the calculator as well, so maybe it is viable to invest some time and perhaps money in printing good quality custom faceplates with precut holes, perhaps even something that Swiss Micros might want to do. Perhaps a web based designer in connecion with an order form. That might be a way to create more interest, and ultimately business.

And if they are not interested, there might be other ways.

In this case, we could all have our cakes and eat them, and other 43S owners might jump on our bandwagon later if they want. They might even clone the original 43S code, keep the original 43S hardware and keys, and just change their shifted options.

Would that be even more value from your effort?
Good ideas, but not from me. My work is available (will be at least). Remember my goals: HP42S legacy (especially operators right side).

If others jump on, great. If they want it different, also great.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:07 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:10 am
It is in contradiction with my last proposal. I think you could put REGS and STATUS on the g positions of the cursor keys, or other functions which are only used to display a value, but which you would like to monitor more often.

New observation: Why do we have RTN on a key? Now you slowly notice that I don't have a WP34S, I used the WP31S as simulator, it has an interface with only one shift key... If RTN is not needed on a key, but I can't judge conclusively, this could be HOME.
It is a good idea on [g] up/down.

However, FILL and STK went there as very nice extensions to ENTER, meaning a stack operation group.
I prefer the stack group there.

In my opinion when programming, XEQ, GTO, LBL and RTN are essential to be easily available without too much fuss. I don't particularly like XEQ sop far away from R/S, but it is what it is. HP42 legacy and needs to stay that way.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:51 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:56 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 am

f(SAVE), g(CPX) to "7".
f(EQN), g(FIN) to "8".
f(MATX), g(X.FIN) to "9", still fine.
f(STAT), g(SUMS) to "/", still OK.
f(ALPHA), g(ALPA.FN) at "4", have no better place than to replace Sigma+ with ALPHA.....
f(CONV), g(CNST) to "5".
f(BITS), g(INTS) to "6".
f(PROB), g(PARTS) to "*".
f(ASN), g(REGS) to "1".
f(USER), g(STATUS) to "2", I still think we should rename STATUS.
f(TIMER), g(CLK) to "3", still fine.
f(x!), g(ADV) to "-".
f(LOOP), g(TEST) to "0", still OK.
f(FLAGS), g(INFO) to ".". I think it should be possible to change the position of FLAGS.
f(PRGM, g(P.FN) to "R/S", still fine.
f(CAT), g(I/O) to "+", still OK.

So I haven't found a place for HOME, should this go to the Simga+ key position? I have to read the purpose of HOME again. Without simulation I didn't see it immediately.
The following attempts to show the changes and a bit of the rationale in either going with the change or not.

I used your proposals to arrange my paper cutting keyboard, and I arranged it your way, considered each one and either moved it back (to my last one) or changed it.

I must say, I liked some of your thinking, and that made made me think of even further changes moves.

Looking at 0, [.] and R/S:
I want these to be programming related.
- I carefully looked at the content of FLAGS, and it does belong with programming. But instead of moving FLAGS, I rather change the programming group to extend upwards from PRGM. So FLAGS stays as per 42S.
- LOOP & TEST must stay close to PRGM, therefore stays on [.].
- BITS can move next to FLAGS. I want BITS here as it really belongs with programming.
- I like your point to take TIMER & CLK (admin) away from the operators. It makes sense. In fact I will take it further away from PRGM functions, to [0].
- INFO is not important to be here, so I take it out.

Looking at 1,2,3,[-]:
- I prefer to have the viewing related things closer to ENTER (i.e. on 7 & 8), so therefore I do not want REGS and STATUS on 1 & 2.
- At the same time I feel that SAVE belongs by ASN and USER, so I keep my last arrangement.
- I want ADV by PROB from a functional point of view, and PROB is fixed, therefore ADV goes to [g][x].
- EQN also really belongs by PROB/ADV, so I take it to [g][-].
- FIN is looking for a proper home by advanced functions, so [f][-] works well.
- So what is happening here is the operator are is becoming the advanced mat area: STAT/SUMS & PROB / ADV & FIN / EQN. I like this.

Looking at 4, 5, 6, x:
- A is not going to Sigma+ ;-)
- I must have DRG> on 5. In fact, it’s functionally it exactly is what CONV was on 42S.
- To make the vertical programming arrangement, PARTS & INTS on [3] to be close to PRGM.


Looking at: 7,8,9, /:
- Since TRI is gone and available, and DRG> went down to [5], I move your CPX back to [g][SIN].
- So, 7 & 8 is open again ()all your labels moved away), so I restore it the way I had it SHOW/VIEW/REGS/STATUS.

Filling in the unfilled openings now,
- I place x! On [g][CHS] with all the math functions.
- I place CNST at [g][EEX]

And all that is left is [g][1] which can be used for INFO or for HOME.
- If HOME is used, INFO can be right there on a shift on the function keys.
- If INFO is used, HOME can only be called by triple tapping the shift key/.

To recap the idea of HOME, is to have an easy access use for the FN keys, for ease of use.
- To have an easy way to place the basic math menus directly in the math area on the FN keys.
- To have a way to easily access INFO, which was sacrificed to get the HOME button.
- To add some handy math primaries if you use the calc without menus.
HOME is still accessible by triple shift. So, INFO can still go back to the keyboard instead. I am not fully decided.
Either way, HOME is now directly next to the shift button. Either double shift [1], or triple shift brings it up.

Image
The latest changes after the enlighment from dani.

Image
The grouping visible, as well as the amount of HP42S alignment achieved.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:19 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:03 pm
Everyone can roll his own layout. It is a mission though, as there are if's and but's all over in the code.
Yes, code will be available as per GPL rules.
Any work as you suggest is possible by anyone.
Remember, that is exactly what I did - took the code from the main project which is open as per GPL, and modified it.
Anyone can do that.

...

Good ideas, but not from me. My work is available (will be at least). Remember my goals: HP42S legacy (especially operators right side).

If others jump on, great. If they want it different, also great.
I totally understand. Your effort might be the example others would look to for inspiration, so I am glad you're sharing it.

As Dani has mentioned, some refactoring of the original code might make it easier, but that need not happen until way down the road - if someone takes the bother.

I guess I'm just stating the obvious, that this combination of hardware platform and software has the potential of having a much more interesting future than any of its predecessors.

And perhaps hinting towards Swiss Micros to consider looking into a way to make custom faceplates available... :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

Dani R.
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:30 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:07 pm
...

In my opinion when programming, XEQ, GTO, LBL and RTN are essential to be easily available without too much fuss. I don't particularly like XEQ sop far away from R/S, but it is what it is. HP42 legacy and needs to stay that way.
On the DM42S it is natural for me to find LBL and RTN in the menu PGM.FCN. How about g(LBL) on cursor-up and g(RNT) on cursor-down. The g function on XEQ can be filled with g(ALPHA) so that XEQ XEQ for XEQ ALPHA can be remembered better.

I know we're talking in circles.



And I need to think about your last paperwork. I like the direction.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:51 pm

The last changes on paper, into the emulator.

It shows another rendition of the HOME menu. I populated it with

parallel and pi
[f] math menus
[g] admin functions

Clearly this is up for negotiation what goes in there. Maybe even it is not needed with the keyboard so logically afrranged already.
Either way, it is there for now.

Image

I got advice from the dev team how to compile for the DM42.

I am leaving this layout to simmer with you guys for a few days, and will spend the time over the next few days to try setup the dev system to compile for DM42 target.

Welcome to discuss layout of course, but I mean, I'm not going to do major changes as we've done over the past few days.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:17 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:51 pm
The last changes on paper, into the emulator.

It shows another rendition of the HOME menu. I populated it with

parallel and pi
[f] math menus
[g] admin functions

Clearly this is up for negotiation what goes in there. Maybe even it is not needed with the keyboard so logically afrranged already.
Either way, it is there for now.

Image

I got advice from the dev team how to compile for the DM42.

I am leaving this layout to simmer with you guys for a few days, and will spend the time over the next few days to try setup the dev system to compile for DM42 target.

Welcome to discuss layout of course, but I mean, I'm not going to do major changes as we've done over the past few days.

J
I'd swap HOME and SAVE, just because I feel HOME has some kinship to USER, and SAVE to ASN. I can't justify it further, so this is just personal preference which I am happy to yield.

Other than that, it looks perfect! Well done! :D
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:33 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:17 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:51 pm
The last changes on paper, into the emulator.

It shows another rendition of the HOME menu. I populated it with

parallel and pi
[f] math menus
[g] admin functions

Clearly this is up for negotiation what goes in there. Maybe even it is not needed with the keyboard so logically afrranged already.
Either way, it is there for now.

I got advice from the dev team how to compile for the DM42.

I am leaving this layout to simmer with you guys for a few days, and will spend the time over the next few days to try setup the dev system to compile for DM42 target.

Welcome to discuss layout of course, but I mean, I'm not going to do major changes as we've done over the past few days.

J
I'd swap HOME and SAVE, just because I feel HOME has some kinship to USER, and SAVE to ASN. I can't justify it further, so this is just personal preference which I am happy to yield.

Other than that, it looks perfect! Well done! :D
I would agree to that.

As Dani mentioned, the STATUS (flag bit viewer) needs another name.

Ideas? We already changed RBR (Register browser) to REGS.

BITS is already taken and FLAGS too. Maybe B.ST (for bit state).

On the same thing, maybe REG.ST (for register state).
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:30 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:33 pm
As Dani mentioned, the STATUS (flag bit viewer) needs another name.

Ideas? We already changed RBR (Register browser) to REGS.

BITS is already taken and FLAGS too. Maybe B.ST (for bit state).

On the same thing, maybe REG.ST (for register state).
Perhaps - since state/status is overloaded, it does seem smart to qualify all of them to remove any guesswork.

I know it is embarrasingly late to ask, but the (g) shifted # on the [1/X] key didn't really catch my eye until now. What does it do?
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:47 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:30 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:33 pm
As Dani mentioned, the STATUS (flag bit viewer) needs another name.

Ideas? We already changed RBR (Register browser) to REGS.

BITS is already taken and FLAGS too. Maybe B.ST (for bit state).

On the same thing, maybe REG.ST (for register state).
Perhaps - since state/status is overloaded, it does seem smart to qualify all of them to remove any guesswork.

I know it is embarrasingly late to ask, but the (g) shifted # on the [1/X] key didn't really catch my eye until now. What does it do?
Agree.

REG.ST or REG.S
BIT.ST or FLG.ST or BIT.S
?

# is to change of integer number base.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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