43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 am

DRG-> on g on SIN. If something is missing in TRI, I think this could be solved in DRG-> and EXP.

New observation; It makes sense to have FILL and STK on x<>y on f and g. But where does R<- and ->P go? At such a popular place as the cursors?

f(SAVE), g(CPX) to "7".
f(EQN), g(FIN) to "8".
f(MATX), g(X.FIN) to "9", still fine.
f(STAT), g(SUMS) to "/", still OK.
f(ALPHA), g(ALPA.FN) at "4", have no better place than to replace Sigma+ with ALPHA.....
f(CONV), g(CNST) to "5".
f(BITS), g(INTS) to "6".
f(PROB), g(PARTS) to "*".
f(ASN), g(REGS) to "1".
f(USER), g(STATUS) to "2", I still think we should rename STATUS.
f(TIMER), g(CLK) to "3", still fine.
f(x!), g(ADV) to "-".
f(LOOP), g(TEST) to "0", still OK.
f(FLAGS), g(INFO) to ".". I think it should be possible to change the position of FLAGS.
f(PRGM, g(P.FN) to "R/S", still fine.
f(CAT), g(I/O) to "+", still OK.

So I haven't found a place for HOME, should this go to the Simga+ key position? I have to read the purpose of HOME again. Without simulation I didn't see it immediately.

I think f(SHOW), g(MODE) on "CHS", f(VIEW), g(DISP) on "EEX" and f(<-|), g(CLX) in "<-" is still fine.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:17 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 am
DRG-> on g on SIN. If something is missing in TRI, I think this could be solved in DRG-> and EXP.
And keep ACOS and ATAN on [COS] and [TAN]?
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The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:40 am

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:17 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 am
DRG-> on g on SIN. If something is missing in TRI, I think this could be solved in DRG-> and EXP.
And keep ACOS and ATAN on [COS] and [TAN]?
Good question. I think if you keep SIN, COS and TAN you should keep ASIN, ACOS and ATAN on the first shift as well. The hyperbolic functions are only used by a handful of people, they are well stored in a menu. So yes, f(ASIN) on "SIN", f(ACOS) on "COS" and f(ATAN) on "TAN, g(DRG->) on "SIN, g(EXP) on "COS" and g(RTN) on "TAN".
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:56 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:40 am
H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:17 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 am
DRG-> on g on SIN. If something is missing in TRI, I think this could be solved in DRG-> and EXP.
And keep ACOS and ATAN on [COS] and [TAN]?
Good question. I think if you keep SIN, COS and TAN you should keep ASIN, ACOS and ATAN on the first shift as well. The hyperbolic functions are only used by a handful of people, they are well stored in a menu. So yes, f(ASIN) on "SIN", f(ACOS) on "COS" and f(ATAN) on "TAN, g(DRG->) on "SIN, g(EXP) on "COS" and g(RTN) on "TAN".
As I understand Jaco, [SIN], [COS], and [TAN] are non-negotiable, as those labels are printed on the keys themselves.

Next, I think that ASIN, ACOS, and ATAN should either all stay, or all go. They could go, if they are easily accessible from a menu, but that would deviate from 42S legacy which was an explicit goal.

Personally, I'd like them to stay, but that's just a matter of preference.

However, I am preparing another post which might provide a way to make all happy. Stay tuned...
Last edited by H2X on Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:56 am

@Jaco, I am just thinking out loud, but might a possible outcome of this effort be a way that people could easily create their own favorite layouts?

You were talking about making the code available. Seems what would be needed is the ability to clone your code, build images for the calculator, and manufacture faceplates.

The latter might be interesting for people programming the calculator as well, so maybe it is viable to invest some time and perhaps money in printing good quality custom faceplates with precut holes, perhaps even something that Swiss Micros might want to do. Perhaps a web based designer in connecion with an order form. That might be a way to create more interest, and ultimately business.

And if they are not interested, there might be other ways.

In this case, we could all have our cakes and eat them, and other 43S owners might jump on our bandwagon later if they want. They might even clone the original 43S code, keep the original 43S hardware and keys, and just change their shifted options.

Would that be even more value from your effort?
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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:10 am

It is in contradiction with my last proposal. I think you could put REGS and STATUS on the g positions of the cursor keys, or other functions which are only used to display a value, but which you would like to monitor more often.

New observation: Why do we have RTN on a key? Now you slowly notice that I don't have a WP34S, I used the WP31S as simulator, it has an interface with only one shift key... If RTN is not needed on a key, but I can't judge conclusively, this could be HOME.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:42 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:10 am
It is in contradiction with my last proposal. I think you could put REGS and STATUS on the g positions of the cursor keys, or other functions which are only used to display a value, but which you would like to monitor more often.

New observation: Why do we have RTN on a key? Now you slowly notice that I don't have a WP34S, I used the WP31S as simulator, it has an interface with only one shift key... If RTN is not needed on a key, but I can't judge conclusively, this could be HOME.
I have both a WP34S and a WP31S, but I haven't considered them during this discussion. Are they relevant? I thought the 43S was aimed to be something new on new hardware without the restrictions posed by the HP30B and HP20B.

In this case, since the labels printed on the keys themselves are stuck - either as they are on the current DM42, or will be on the 43S - in my reasoning these are better references than the WP34S with its compromises.

Also, frankly, I think the keyboard on the WP34S is not good, but I excuse it for the above reason, and salute the team for what they did with the available hardware.

Besides, 42S legacy is both stated as a goal by Jaco, but I'll confess it does appeal to me. Particularly since I intend to keep using my DM42. The WP34S will most likely remain a curiousity forever for me, I'm afraid. Especially after the 43S is released.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:37 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:10 am
Now you slowly notice that I don't have a WP34S, I used the WP31S as simulator, it has an interface with only one shift key...
Oh, you don't have a 42S?

Edit: Strike that, I see that you have a DM42.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:56 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 am
DRG-> on g on SIN. If something is missing in TRI, I think this could be solved in DRG-> and EXP.

New observation; It makes sense to have FILL and STK on x<>y on f and g. But where does R<- and ->P go? At such a popular place as the cursors?

f(SAVE), g(CPX) to "7".
f(EQN), g(FIN) to "8".
f(MATX), g(X.FIN) to "9", still fine.
f(STAT), g(SUMS) to "/", still OK.
f(ALPHA), g(ALPA.FN) at "4", have no better place than to replace Sigma+ with ALPHA.....
f(CONV), g(CNST) to "5".
f(BITS), g(INTS) to "6".
f(PROB), g(PARTS) to "*".
f(ASN), g(REGS) to "1".
f(USER), g(STATUS) to "2", I still think we should rename STATUS.
f(TIMER), g(CLK) to "3", still fine.
f(x!), g(ADV) to "-".
f(LOOP), g(TEST) to "0", still OK.
f(FLAGS), g(INFO) to ".". I think it should be possible to change the position of FLAGS.
f(PRGM, g(P.FN) to "R/S", still fine.
f(CAT), g(I/O) to "+", still OK.

So I haven't found a place for HOME, should this go to the Simga+ key position? I have to read the purpose of HOME again. Without simulation I didn't see it immediately.

I think f(SHOW), g(MODE) on "CHS", f(VIEW), g(DISP) on "EEX" and f(<-|), g(CLX) in "<-" is still fine.

I used your proposals to arrange my paper cutting keyboard, and I arranged it your way, considered each one and either moved it back (to my last one) or changed it.

I must say, I liked some of your thinking, and that made made me think of even better moves.

Let me read through the last mails, possibly make some last changes after the below comments, and then I will send the result.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:58 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:56 am

As I understand Jaco, [SIN], [COS], and [TAN] are non-negotiable, as those labels are printed on the keys themselves.

All current DM42 buttons stay. That is one of the main points, so SIN, COS & TAN stays. The ASIN ACOS and ATAN is logical as per HP42S.
The hyperbolics are in the EXP menu as well as in the TRI menus.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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