43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:42 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:25 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:17 pm
Good idea. I like the base word: “character”. I like that more than “text”, because “text” largely refers to paragraphs or even more.

CHR.FN would be ideal if I can fit it in the space.
CR.FN is too vague and does not remind of character.
CS.FN also is far from intuitive.

I even think CHAR may be effective, even if there is no FN.

Other thoughts?
Does "character" suggest single character manipulations?
Good question: my thoughts were that it refers to character based manipulations, including multiple characters like shifting of a string of characters for example.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:13 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:42 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:25 pm
Does "character" suggest single character manipulations?
Good question: my thoughts were that it refers to character based manipulations, including multiple characters like shifting of a string of characters for example.
I understand your thinking.

I can't help noticing that "string of characters" snuck itself into that last sentence of yours, though... :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:51 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm
Hi all
I am busy with a rendition of NHG with 2 tweaks:

1. Slightly decreased compression, 1.2x of the 50pc, i.e. 60pc.
2. Slight increase in the spacing right of the letter.

It is a manual process, so I am only doing the 26 caps, and a few more lower case letters.

I will rather you first try the 60pc+spc version as it is almost complete now, and let’s decide what after that. Too much to do the range of percentages upfront.

J
New fonts sent.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:13 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:42 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:25 pm
Does "character" suggest single character manipulations?
Good question: my thoughts were that it refers to character based manipulations, including multiple characters like shifting of a string of characters for example.
I understand your thinking.

I can't help noticing that "string of characters" snuck itself into that last sentence of yours, though... :-)
What are the options though? I copied the suggestions in the posts above:

CHR.FN would be ideal if I can fit it in the space.
CR.FN is too vague and does not remind of character.
CS.FN also is far from intuitive.
CHAR may be effective, even if there is no FN.
CSTR
CS.FN
TXT.FN
STR.FN for L1A
TX.FN which can work
ST.FN which is confusing due to STK
T.FN may also work.
STR.E
TXT,
TEXT,
or TXT.FN or STR.FN (if it fits), but not STR which is too close to STK.
S.FN rarely used, and then by the people who use P.FN also.
A.FN maybe the big A is enough to establish the distance to ALPHA.
STR might not be a good name, since STK already exists
STRNG
STRG

The facts for .FN functions are:
- P.FN (is on the same button as PRGM, conveniently differentiating from PRGM (or P/R originally)).
- X.FN (short form for extra mathematical functions)
- a.FN (alpha functions, differentiating from a which is on the same button)
- a.FN includes character and string manipulation.
- The FN in P.FN and a.FN are to avoid confusion and to be unique. There is a FN in X.FN because it is short for EXTRA FUNCTIONS.
- Many other menus have functions, but are not called .FN because there is no reason.

There is no confusion for a.FN if we remove it from the same button as alpha, and if the label word is changed. My point is it needs no .FN.

Then we have 5 letters, and we don't need to waste 3 letters on .FN.
The a.FN menu is for 7 STRING AND 1 CHARACTER manipulation functions. So, in short, we have with STRING MANIPULATION. Therefore, the apt work to use is STRING, which is as H2X recently said, Dani earlier, and myself this evening: we are dealing with strings.

Options therefore are:

STRING (too long)
STR (too much like STK)
STRNG (can work)
STRG (can work)

I choose STRNG and the result looks like this. Any objections to the summary or the logic?

See implementation on Layout 1A.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:48 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm

For me, the font is too compressed.
I agree. I sent a 20% larger font, with slightly more spacing in between characters. We take it from there.
See below.
inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:04 pm

I will kindly request that Jaymos might assist again in generating another few sets of NHG compressed fonts. A 60%, 70%, and possibly an 80% set.
I already was done with the 60 percent version when this mail came in. I will gladly make other sizes, but I suggest maybe update say 2 x 2 buttons of the design with the newer font, and possibly a larger point size, and let us see what to tweak further on the fonts.
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm

- The shadows brighter instead of darker. This certainly gives a visually different effect.
The SUBTLY darker shades with the SUBTLE lighter boxes do make lesser clutter. I buy inautilus' point (at this stage).
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm

- Make the frame around the g-label in blue, the same as the font. This also gives a different visual effect.
I would be careful to bring too many colours or lines into the area. Rather have the lines the same colour, and darker. I like inautilus' statement that it magically disappears. IF WE CAN have it that way, it will be great. Less clutter but still function.
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm

- Because of the previous point a very small distance between two menu labels.
I agree. In fact inautilus mentioned the KEY WORD to me being BALANCE. That means that not all distances have to be the same.
I find the organic elements (i.e. non-clinically calculated elements) will aid in an easier to use template.
What does that mean? I mean where two labels are short, like a and CLK, the spacing between can be more than between PARTS and TEST, for example.


They font updates below:

I suspect that the inter-character spacing is now a little bit too much. Let's see on the template.
(Personally, I love the fattened pi ;-) )
Screenshot 2019-08-25 at 00.43.55.jpg
Screenshot 2019-08-25 at 00.43.55.jpg (146.77 KiB) Viewed 265 times
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Helix
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Helix » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:44 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:25 am
Thanks in advance for any considered views you might be able to share.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1t0pIr ... MxvED0YzNV
1. Personally, I don't like borders. But I'm looking at the renderings on my screen, so those who have printed these images have a more valid opinion than me.

2. The font is too compressed. :D

3. The yellow labels appear orange to me. It should be a pure yellow, to maximize contrast.

4. I have a doubt about the background color. I think that the overall color of the DM42 is black, including the keys. The renderings show an obvious brown color. Is there not a mismatch in these colors?

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:54 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:04 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm
Change of subject.

I also take the liberty to make a few remarks ... ( ) ... the readability and the recognition of function and menus.

Now to the criticism. In R 9 Hi-Res Compressed NHG Font - 2019-08-24 D A MacDonald. I am nearsighted. With small fonts, I still have an advantage over many people in being able to read them when I remove my glasses. For me, the font is too compressed. This writing really hurts me, as if my head, my eyes were clamped into a vice. Unfortunately I have to express it so drastically. It's good to have made this attempt, but you probably won't be able to print two labels side by side just on the width of a key.
A few more suggestions ...
The challenge is one of balance. The trick is to have the labels produced in such a way as to be primarily easily legible ... and not just for those with perfect vision. The other challenge, however, is more difficult. For a number of reasons it is desirable to have the labels pertaining to menus be subtly differentiated. Whatever the method employed, the menu key labels have to operate in such a way as to work effectively ... clearly signifying their menu status ... while, at the same time, have to be visually non-intrusive ... thus adding no clutter. In effect, these labels have to be effective and work when needed ... but then magically fade into the background when they are not.
Dani : I have just received the up-sized fonts. ( Thank you Jaymos. :) ) They will surely be easier for you (and others) to read ... thereby addressing your prime concern. I should have something to upload by tomorrow evening. And, I will do my best to see if any of your suggestions will work as well. It's just that there is so much to balance off so that in the end ... we achieve optimal results. Again, I will do hatever I can. In the mean time I have made a few subtle changes with these labels in an effort to meet as many of the stated requirements. Click on the link below. While the fonts will be up-sized shortly, hopefully there will be other ways to maximize clarity ... with no clutter.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dw0ri ... j4NSudiZJs
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:39 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 pm
What are the options though?
Fair point. :-)
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 pm
Options therefore are:

STRING (too long)
STR (too much like STK)
STRNG (can work)
STRG (can work)

I choose STRNG and the result looks like this. Any objections to the summary or the logic?

See implementation on Layout 1A.

Image
STRNG could work.

I notice you have STRNG on the same key as STK. For me, this is the one place where STR also could work. STK and STR would be so close that the difference would be noticeable, and the colour difference would also help.

As a counterexample, if you were to call it TEXT, it would clash with TEST on the adjacent key, and both labels would have the same colour. This would be confusing for me.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:05 am

H2X wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:39 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 pm
What are the options though?
Fair point. :-)
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 pm
Options therefore are:

STRING (too long)
STR (too much like STK)
STRNG (can work)
STRG (can work)

I choose STRNG and the result looks like this. Any objections to the summary or the logic?
STRNG could work.

I notice you have STRNG on the same key as STK. For me, this is the one place where STR also could work. STK and STR would be so close that the difference would be noticeable, and the colour difference would also help.

As a counterexample, if you were to call it TEXT, it would clash with TEST on the adjacent key, and both labels would have the same colour. This would be confusing for me.
I now like the string related name most. I think all commentors do. It is most logical.

True re. TEXT / TEST. Never thought of that. ;)

So, the only question is: shortening or not. It differs for the layouts and I can maintain the differences in the code, no problem.

Layout 1A: can be STR. True. The g[-] STK STR can work. Need another commentor though.

Layout 1 and Layout 2: is next to TIMER on g[0] and next to I/O on g[-], respectively. I think keep as STRNG. (Shortening to STRG is not good, as it is confusing for German speakers, it looks like ‘control’).
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:15 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 pm
...

I choose STRNG and the result looks like this. Any objections to the summary or the logic?

...
I agree with the summery, not using FN also seems logical to me.

But why stop here? I found a few more letters.

You will find the functions under "ALPHA String Operations".
https://archived.hpcalc.org/greendyk/hp ... ed/13.html

ASO
STR.O

But as I already wrote, I don't know, you guys go ahead.
DM42 SN:00032

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