43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

inautilus wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:04 am
@Jaymos ...
... the available real estate is severely limiting to accommodate two labels per key, and the text block borders...
... font could be sized up a little bit, maybe 10-15% in height, it might be a good thing to utilize some version of bold, and of course it should likely be a true type condensed font. (I have found that overriding by manually compressing usually tends to produce letters with jagged edges on the curves).
So the the borders ... while visually appealing ...well, its a function first, form second kind of thing. I still want them ... but if they were to go, all would still be OK.
I agree with the summary.

I have no idea how to do font compression properly in Autocad, but let me tell you how in CorelDraw, maybe some concepts are transplantable:
-- Once you are happy with content of the labels, I mean different fonts & font sizes & BOLD to make it legible, you tell CorelDraw to convert the true type fonts to CURVES. Now all fonts are in VECTORS. Now you can shift each letter, each spacing and the individual strokes to improve and condense further IN VECTOR form, so that no jagged edges start happening, AND so that the rendering equipment can still print and cut etc in VECTOR form.
The menu key differentiation effect can still be achieved by the use of the max black, full gloss text relief background technique (re the HP-42S).
I agree.
As an aside, regarding the keys themselves ... would you happen to know the type or class of coating being used to print ...? Thanks in advance.
We have two options on the table:

1. SwissMicros mentioned to Dani that they will make a template. Coatings and prep I do not know. I will ask Dani to obtain details. I will send PM.
2. TwoWeims mentioned he will try on his Laser Cutter, printing with a Direct to Substrate UV Printer. Maybe TwoWeims could indicate what is possible. I will send PM.
Lastly, when you get a chance,could you pull out your 35s and look it over. I'm sizing up the fonts on it as a reference ... and would like to know what you see/think.
I did get out the the 35s and I like the contrast of the yellow to the pitch black. Of course the shading will be different and must be considered.

I added 35s to my scaled pictures in Section 11 of my document. See next post.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

WP43C documentation

I updated it again. I realised that if I don't use this document as a bitbin for all the bits and pieces we improve and add to the WP43S, nobody will ever know what was done.

Specifically, I added scaled images of the 35s, 42s, 32Sii, WP34C to aid in the ongoing font label discussion.

I am also updating the other sections it as we go, I added a table of contents, emulator key operation, shift key operation, etc.

http://cocoon-creations.com/download/20 ... es_v01.pdf
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus »

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:45 am
Helix wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:36 am
Since I don't own a DM42 ...
Further to Helix's comparison ...

In this quick mockup example below ...

Screenshot 2019-08-19 at 08.36.53.png

I don't think the DM42 used a great font to start with and I think we should improve on both.
After reviewing some drawings on my end, and the mockup by Jaymos in a recent post ... perhaps the vertical size of the menu key label font is acceptable after all. So to test further, some 'what if's' were played out, and 4 differing versions were produced.

The following remained the same for all 4:
- The font is the original font
- The faceplate colour has been lightened, and the saturation has been reduced, but otherwise the same for all.
- And finally the border around the menu key label boxes has been lightened.

The resulting 4 versions can be found at the following link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VZAeu ... fJS7MgQI6A

The goal: what we're after here is clarity, legibility, and effectiveness while not adding in any way to clutter or visual confusion. Please feed back on what the one you find the most appealing ... or heading in the right direction at least.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

inautilus wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:22 pm
The following remained the same for all 4:
- The font is the original font
- The faceplate colour has been lightened, and the saturation has been reduced, but otherwise the same for all.
- And finally the border around the menu key label boxes has been lightened.

The resulting 4 versions ...

The goal: what we're after here is clarity, legibility, and effectiveness while not adding in any way to clutter or visual confusion. Please feed back on what the one you find the most appealing ... or heading in the right direction at least.

Firstly, the font you use might be taller than the DM42 font. But that does not mean it is big enough. We need to find space and increase font size to the maximum we can given the constraints of the area. If 15% increase is possible and we space the yellow/golds tighter, then we do it. Bigger is better here. Further, I strongly fight for a bolder compressed font and propose again the Neue Haak Grotesk Bold, compressed.

No2 is best: clear, legible, effective, has little additional confusion, and is very appealing to me.
No3 has clutter, does not matter how cute and nice the boxes look. I think the boxes are really nice with the black insert area. I think that the boxes may add cuteness, but do not add clarity.
No1 is less clear and legible due to more confusion from the tonal "flatness" not subtly separkrtig functionalities.
No4 is similarly flat, and presents additional confusion due to the boxes.

Regards
Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:36 pm
...

Layout 1: Please apply your mind and maybe find a solution to have ADV and EQN on g[7] and [8]. Swapping?

...

You are right. Familiarity is familiarising and not cloning. I am happy with what is achieved in familiarity in L1. L2 is a usable template for a non-label scenario. We keep it like that.
I wasn't aware that what I wrote was usable. How am I supposed to know what I mean before I heard what I said?


Back to layout 1, I also think EQN and ADV belong on 7 and 8. Large rochade, so just a suggestion:
EQN[f][7], INFO[g][7], ADV[f][8], CONST[g][8], CLK[g][*], TEST[g][-], HOME[f][0], TIMER[g][0], VIEW[g][.].

Personally, I can imagine HOME[g][7] and INFO[f][0]. But I think HOME prefers a [f] position.
For me CONST belongs on [8]. I think INFO belongs on the 5th or 8th line.

Exchange BITS and PARTS? (ulterior motive; possibly BIN,DEC HEX and WSIZE will be added to the menu BITS at some point...)
DM42 SN:00032
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus »

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:35 pm
inautilus wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:22 pm

The goal: what we're after here is clarity, legibility, and effectiveness while not adding in any way to clutter or visual confusion. Please feed back on what the one you find the most appealing ... or heading in the right direction at least.

Firstly, the font you use might be taller than the DM42 font. But that does not mean it is big enough. We need to find space and increase font size to the maximum we can given the constraints of the area. If 15% increase is possible and we space the yellow/golds tighter, then we do it. Bigger is better here. Further, I strongly fight for a bolder compressed font and propose again the Neue Haak Grotesk Bold, compressed.

No2 is best: clear, legible, effective, has little additional confusion, and is very appealing to me.
No3 has clutter, does not matter how cute and nice the boxes look. I think the boxes are really nice with the black insert area. I think that the boxes may add cuteness, but do not add clarity.
No1 is less clear and legible due to more confusion from the tonal "flatness" not subtly separkrtig functionalities.
No4 is similarly flat, and presents additional confusion due to the boxes.
I did a trial run increasing the size by 30% ... and that turned out to be painfully out of place. It was like the labels, with all of their colour, took over the whole keyboard. VERY messy. The I noticed that their original height was actually a bit taller than the DM42. That, in combination with the almost identical font on the 35s made me reconsider if any change was necessary ... at all. But you'll never really know how something will turn out ... until you test for it. I'll keep looking for the NHG, and when I track it down, I'll compress it as recommended. Although the 30% trial was grossly out of place, I think the 15% is absolutely doable.

I liked number 2 as well, but it was my second choice. The whole idea of black being added into the mix ... at all ... so that there is yet another colour ... turned out to just increase the clutter factor. For me, to my great surprise, it was number 4 that jumped off the page. There was no added tension resulting from the addition of essentially another colour. The whole look seems organized, coherent, unified ... refined. It is one of those surprising 'less is more' things (for me anyway). And then there is the added dimension of the visual tie-in of the horizontal rectangle label form ... with the rectangular form of the soft screen that it is meant to represent. That was a gift ...

Cheers
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:30 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:36 pm
Layout 1: Please apply your mind and maybe find a solution to have ADV and EQN on g[7] and [8]. Swapping?
I wasn't aware that what I wrote was usable. How am I supposed to know what I mean before I heard what I said?
:D

Back to layout 1, I also think EQN and ADV belong on 7 and 8. Large rochade, so just a suggestion:
EQN[f][7], INFO[g][7], ADV[f][8], CONST[g][8], CLK[g][*], TEST[g][-], HOME[f][0], TIMER[g][0], VIEW[g][.].
I tried to fix those important ones immediately in green boxes.

Personally, I can imagine HOME[g][7] and INFO[f][0]. But I think HOME prefers a [f] position.
I like that a lot and did g[HOME]. I don't think g[HOME] is a problem because after HOME there are many screens. You have to arrow still, and then stand still to think what you need. It is a slow menu already so g does not matter.
Same with INFO. It is a lot of system flags - technical - cluttered menu. It is slow. g does not matter.
So both to g. g[7] and g[0]. And TIMER stays. Marked orange.

For me CONST belongs on [8]. I think INFO belongs on the 5th or 8th line.
Fully agree

Exchange BITS and PARTS? (ulterior motive; possibly BIN,DEC HEX and WSIZE will be added to the menu BITS at some point...)
I thought long and hard on this. INTS and BITS fit really nice together. But unfortunately also FLAGS and BITS. I want to keep FLAGS on the for 42S familiarity, so I prefer if BITS stay with FLAGS.

But you made me think. INTS really is a command function menu with MOD RMDR etc, and not a programming menu. So it belongs in row 6 closer to the "calculator part". The only space is next to PROB. So it goes there. Marked in pink. It forms an interesting blue/blue symmetry, the same way ADV and EQN does blue/blue.

TEST is fully programming, so closer to the centre it goes to g[3]. Marked pink.
And what is left, CLK, to g[-]. Also pink.

---

There is one more idea on the graphic: bring TEST and STK closer to the centre, because they are programming really, and take CLK and PARTS to the side.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

inautilus wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:50 pm
...For me, to my great surprise, it was number 4 that jumped off the page. There was no added tension resulting from the addition of essentially another colour. The whole look seems organized, coherent, unified ... refined. It is one of those surprising 'less is more' things (for me anyway). And then there is the added dimension of the visual tie-in of the horizontal rectangle label form ... with the rectangular form of the soft screen that it is meant to represent. That was a gift ...

I read your comment, and went back with an open mind to find the things you mention. I looked and looked and and No 2 still works. ;-)

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus »

Am really chasing my tail here trying to get the NHG bold fonts as suggested. I'll keep looking though. Of course, one can always purchase them ... but they're pretty pricey being popular in the commercial print world.

But didn't HP predominantly employ versions of Helvetica ... to the point where the had their own custom font "HP Helvetica" ?
(https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-6719.html)

And so, reluctantly, I may have to go with some close relative ... possibly a version of Swiss 721. (Helvetica translates as Swiss, as I understand it. They are virtually the same fonts.)

So, not sure how best to proceed ... since you seem strongly committed to the NHG Bold font compressed.

Please review some samples of what I do have. Thanks

Image
Attachments
Possible LABEL Font Alternative to NHG bold compresed.png
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D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

inautilus wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:45 pm
Am really chasing my tail here trying to get the NHG bold fonts as suggested. I'll keep looking though. Of course, one can always purchase them ... but they're pretty pricey being popular in the commercial print world.

But didn't HP predominantly employ versions of Helvetica ... to the point where the had their own custom font "HP Helvetica" ?
(https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-6719.html)

And so, reluctantly, I may have to go with some close relative ... possibly a version of Swiss 721. (Helvetica translates as Swiss, as I understand it. They are virtually the same fonts.)

So, not sure how best to proceed ... since you seem strongly committed to the NHG Bold font compressed.

Please review some samples of what I do have. Thanks

Image
I like the shape and compactness of the second last sample.

Check the free font web reference I PM’d you, and please do a comparison with the second last. It could well be that the Swiss one that you have, have a more readily available compressed version. We need an effective font which is pleasing, and your find could be better than mine. And we need not buy fonts.

Let’s compare and choose from those which we can find.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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