43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:35 pm
As always, I don't want to step on anyone's toes. As a temporary interim solution; Swiss Army Knife.
Whether this is temporary or not, the graphic file works and looks good.

I am also trying to make the GTK tool draw the yellow/blue dots, but I'm not successful as yet. I will not spend too much time on this, as the PNG solution works already.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:19 pm

inautilus wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:21 pm
Perhaps I didn't 'sell' the idea enough ... my bad. So, I'll take another run at the ball ...

The 43 already is in that sweet spot, functionally speaking. Or as said: "a bit of everything is the magic." What I had intended to communicate was that since some of the 43's keys do function to represent menus .... then it might be worth a closer look to see exactly how they are identified/labelled. One could argue that the underlining method may not be optimal visually speaking ... the keyboard might now be tending to be exceedingly cluttered. If this is the case ... then there is another way to cleanly identify/label. Drop any type of underlining and go with a lighter shade 'context box" for the key label to live within. (See the 'MODE', 'LOGS' command labeling in the first photo, and see the 'CUSTOM' command key in the second photo) I contend that this method of denotation is visually direct, easy to identify, clean, and more importantly ... uncluttered.
So, If I understand correctly, do you suggest that the underlining is exchanged for a slightly shaded box?

Of course I am open for that. Not necessarily for the emulator (as that may take some time to develop or understand GTK used for the emulator), but definitely for the template over my DM42.

I can see that the lines cause clutter.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by inautilus » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:24 pm

Precisely ... !
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:10 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:35 pm
... As a temporary interim solution; Swiss Army Knife.
Whether this is temporary or not, the graphic file works and looks good.

...
Done from the wrist, without ruler and grid. It definitely requires an engineered template. But I'm glad it's enough at the moment.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:40 am

Dani R. wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:10 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:35 pm
... As a temporary interim solution; Swiss Army Knife.
Whether this is temporary or not, the graphic file works and looks good.

...
Done from the wrist, without ruler and grid. It definitely requires an engineered template. But I'm glad it's enough at the moment.

Changed alpha colours to RED, and increased by 10% size. 20% seems too big.
Changed Y & N to white to help find Y & N for confirmations
Integrated the graphic with Yellow/Blue dots.

Comments?


Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

Dani R.
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am

Hm, hard to decide. Since our paperwork day I print out your screenshots more often. Now I scaled the printout so that the picture is 7.7 x 14.4 cm, which is about the size of the DM42. If I now place a few calculator next to each other, I have to say that the DM42 clearly wins as far as the readability of the alphabet is concerned. Even before the 41C and far before the 35S, where the red letters has to fight against the black keys. If you stick with a dark keyboard plate, I think Werner has already done an excellent job. For me you don't even have to change the font size. It also makes sense to introduce white. Personally, I could also live with having the alphabet in yellow, even if there is now blue on the keyboard as well. But the positions of the alpha keys go into the muscle memory anyway.

People with a color weakening could of course also have other priorities.

It makes sense to introduce a contrast for "Y" and "N". Why not even use blue?

The idea to have the menu items with a background richer in contrast better set off, as for example with the 28S, is definitely a suggestion worth considering. When implementing it, I could imagine that the mix function/function, function/menu, menu/menu could bring some restlessness. Also difficult to decide. I got another new idea, which you can also check. Couldn't you generally underline the menus, no matter if they are on [f] or on [g], with six short white dots/lines, which would symbolize the keys F1..F6. Certainly difficult with Gtk, Qt QML would probably not help either. But to realize with CorelDraw?

So much for the moment.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
Hm, hard to decide. Since our paperwork day I print out your screenshots more often. Now I scaled the printout so that the picture is 7.7 x 14.4 cm, which is about the size of the DM42. If I now place a few calculator next to each other, I have to say that the DM42 clearly wins as far as the readability of the alphabet is concerned.
Nice to know!
It makes sense to introduce a contrast for "Y" and "N". Why not even use blue?
I don't like to over use the blue which is for [g].

I emphasised the white and I like it now.

I got another new idea, which you can also check. Couldn't you generally underline the menus, no matter if they are on [f] or on [g], with six short white dots/lines, which would symbolize the keys F1..F6. Certainly difficult with Gtk, Qt QML would probably not help either. But to realize with CorelDraw?
Impossible with GTK. I mean everything is possible, but not at the cost of work for the emulator. I agree, maybe do some tests on a graphic file so we can see what it is like, for possible use in the future template. Gimp may be a good tool to do a mock up. Can you try?
The idea to have the menu items with a background richer in contrast better set off, as for example with the 28S, is definitely a suggestion worth considering. When implementing it, I could imagine that the mix function/function, function/menu, menu/menu could bring some restlessness.
I did not like the red texts on the emulator. Yes I tried it because I liked the mockups. But in reality it does not work (for me).

I also tried your 28S suggestion with the shading of the menu texts instead of the underlining, that is a lot easier and can actually be done in die GTK CSS style sheet only (wp43s_pre.css, in the same folder as the emulator executable)!

Code: Select all

#gShiftedUnderline {
  background:  #383838;
  color:       $gBlue;
  font-family: WP43S_StandardFont;
  font-style:  normal;
  font-weight: normal;
  font-size:   18px;
  padding:     0px;
  /* JM removed "text-decoration: underline;" and changed from "background:  $bezelBackground;" */
Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

Dani R.
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:02 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
It makes sense to introduce a contrast for "Y" and "N". Why not even use blue?
I don't like to over use the blue which is for [g].

I emphasised the white and I like it now.
Then yellow can be the solution.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
I got another new idea, which you can also check. Couldn't you generally underline the menus, no matter if they are on [f] or on [g], with six short white dots/lines, which would symbolize the keys F1..F6. Certainly difficult with Gtk, Qt QML would probably not help either. But to realize with CorelDraw?
Impossible with GTK. I mean everything is possible, but not at the cost of work for the emulator. I agree, maybe do some tests on a graphic file so we can see what it is like, for possible use in the future template. Gimp may be a good tool to do a mock up. Can you try?
Ha ha, when I wrote Swiss Army Knive, of course you come to GIMP. It was Paint... Let's see if and how I find the time to do a mock up. Actually I planned the weekend for a deadline.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
The idea to have the menu items with a background richer in contrast better set off, as for example with the 28S, is definitely a suggestion worth considering. When implementing it, I could imagine that the mix function/function, function/menu, menu/menu could bring some restlessness.
I did not like the red texts on the emulator. Yes I tried it because I liked the mockups. But in reality it does not work (for me).

I also tried your 28S suggestion with the shading of the menu texts instead of the underlining, that is a lot easier and can actually be done in die GTK CSS style sheet only (wp43s_pre.css, in the same folder as the emulator executable)!
Originally the idea came from inautilus, but this is probably the way to go, one solution for the simulator another solution for the hardware keyboard.
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 568
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:23 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:02 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
It makes sense to introduce a contrast for "Y" and "N". Why not even use blue?
I don't like to over use the blue which is for [g].

I emphasised the white and I like it now.
Then yellow can be the solution.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
I got another new idea, which you can also check. Couldn't you generally underline the menus, no matter if they are on [f] or on [g], with six short white dots/lines, which would symbolize the keys F1..F6. Certainly difficult with Gtk, Qt QML would probably not help either. But to realize with CorelDraw?
Impossible with GTK. I mean everything is possible, but not at the cost of work for the emulator. I agree, maybe do some tests on a graphic file so we can see what it is like, for possible use in the future template. Gimp may be a good tool to do a mock up. Can you try?
Ha ha, when I wrote Swiss Army Knive, of course you come to GIMP. It was Paint... Let's see if and how I find the time to do a mock up. Actually I planned the weekend for a deadline.
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
The idea to have the menu items with a background richer in contrast better set off, as for example with the 28S, is definitely a suggestion worth considering. When implementing it, I could imagine that the mix function/function, function/menu, menu/menu could bring some restlessness.
I did not like the red texts on the emulator. Yes I tried it because I liked the mockups. But in reality it does not work (for me).

I also tried your 28S suggestion with the shading of the menu texts instead of the underlining, that is a lot easier and can actually be done in die GTK CSS style sheet only (wp43s_pre.css, in the same folder as the emulator executable)!
Originally the idea came from inautilus, but this is probably the way to go, one solution for the simulator another solution for the hardware keyboard.

The more ideas the better.
I analyse each, and proceed.
Yes I confused the source, but the comments are the same!
Sorry did not mean to step on toes😉
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

Dani R.
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:00 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:55 am
I got another new idea, which you can also check. Couldn't you generally underline the menus, no matter if they are on [f] or on [g], with six short white dots/lines, which would symbolize the keys F1..F6. Certainly difficult with Gtk, Qt QML would probably not help either. But to realize with CorelDraw?
Impossible with GTK. I mean everything is possible, but not at the cost of work for the emulator. I agree, maybe do some tests on a graphic file so we can see what it is like, for possible use in the future template. Gimp may be a good tool to do a mock up. Can you try?
Hello Jaco

You get food for another dummy. I have no idea if the idea works or if we should just discard it again.

Regards Dani
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