43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Well done!

I clearly see Inautilus’ hand in the mockup you made from the old template. ;)

Nice!

There are a few graphical tweaks that we since made to the old layout which will get onto the metal template. Only button changes are top left and top right. We since removed the white texts right above, as those buttons without menu, are simply the yellow labels underneath them.

I would need to make a few changes in the code to make a L1 revision DM42 pgm file to suit the L1 template. I will consider that soon.

But please look carefully at the L1 simulator image (slightly different to this) a few days earlier, as the layout is nearing freeze stage. Example, what about the text superscript currently on shift O. How about shift M for that? Seems to be fitting on Rup.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
pyridine
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by pyridine »

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 pm
I clearly see Inautilus’ hand in the mockup you made from the old template. ;)
Yes I shamelessly modified his bezel !
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 pm
There are a few graphical tweaks that we since made to the old layout which will get onto the metal template. Only button changes are top left and top right. We since removed the white texts right above, as those buttons without menu, are simply the yellow labels underneath them.
I was just lazy in changing everything... but I can finish the job.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 pm
..., what about the text superscript currently on shift O. How about shift M for that? Seems to be fitting on 'R^'.

That's fine with me, it makes perfect sense!
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:15 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 pm
..., what about the text superscript currently on shift O. How about shift M for that? Seems to be fitting on 'R^'.

That's fine with me, it makes perfect sense!

On second thought, f[X<>Y] already produces the <> arrows, and that we would loose the <>. I think that <> must rather stay on f[M]. I think we do not change.
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Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:15 pm
... f[X<>Y] already produces the <> arrows ...

This is true, of course.

But this also means that you actually need a foil for the back of the DM42 case with the legend of the ALPHA keyboard.

aINTL can be found in two positions, but this does not hurt.
#' and '><' can only be found on an f-key position, but not in the menu aMATH.
'+-' can be found on an f- key, but also in the menu aMATH.
The 'SQRT' on the f- key and the 'SQRT' in the menu aMATH are not the same symbol.
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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Just a thought fart, probably not worth a closer look. But to relieve the pressure, I'll let him out of here.


I don't consider it realistic to create a foil for the backside of the DM42 to show the few symbols on the f-position for faster accessible. I think these symbols all belong in the menu aMATH.

There is case-sensitive writing. Sure, you might ask yourself, is lower case needed. But it is there. This is supported by "Caps Lock" in different versions of operation. In order to write text in upper and lower case smoothly, it is recommended to use the SHIFT key to switch between the two! I admit it, I grew up speaking German, so I use the upper case more often and you don't even notice the SHIFT key when typing text. Close parenthesis.
So if you had no symbols directly on the keys and if you would use upper and lower case letters directly, there would be problems with the number block. You would need additional "Num Lock" to insert numbers as text. In the status line the display of "Num Lock" is not (yet) supported. For lowered text and superscript numbers a different handling would be needed.


If this fart stinks too much, just air it for three minutes. You should do this once every hour anyway.



EDIT: CheckBox for "Caps Lock" and "Num Lock" on FN.. in ALPHA Mode?
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
Just a thought fart, probably not worth a closer look. But to relieve the pressure, I'll let him out of here.
... NumLock ...
Good thoughts here ... fear not we will endure it ...
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
I don't consider it realistic to create a foil for the backside of the DM42 to show the few symbols on the f-position for faster accessible. I think these symbols all belong in the menu aMATH.
I am sure this is something that can be made by an enthusiast, easy to design, easy to print on adhesive foil.
But I do not plan to make it - the software takes enough time ;-).
If it is made, I will use it though.
In principle I agree - the menus are there, and the shortcuts are just that - shortcuts if you need it a lot.

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
There is case-sensitive writing. Sure, you might ask yourself, is lower case needed. But it is there. This is supported by "Caps Lock" in different versions of operation. In order to write text in upper and lower case smoothly, it is recommended to use the SHIFT key to switch between the two! I admit it, I grew up speaking German, so I use the upper case more often and you don't even notice the SHIFT key when typing text. Close parenthesis.
So if you had no symbols directly on the keys and if you would use upper and lower case letters directly, there would be problems with the number block. You would need additional "Num Lock" to insert numbers as text. In the status line the display of "Num Lock" is not (yet) supported. For lowered text and superscript numbers a different handling would be needed.


If this fart stinks too much, just air it for three minutes. You should do this once every hour anyway.
What I immediately took home from this thought is the idea of locking in and out of Numlock. Caps lock is shift J in Alpha mode. Easy to add NumLock on say shift K. Shift K is not used for something else and can easily get the N maybe? Quite fitting with the C next to it.
I love the idea.

So, A latching NumLock button and mode on shift K. There is already an a and A icon in the status bar on top indicating caps mode. This can be replaced with the fancy Capital (Natural Number) N if in num lock mode, as these modes are indeed mutually exclusive. I really like this idea.
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
EDIT: CheckBox for "Caps Lock" and "Num Lock" on FN.. in ALPHA Mode?
This is possible and easy, but I am still thinking if it is needed if there is a button and an indicator on top.

There is of course space for two buttons top right Caps (with the Complex C) and NumL (with the Natural number N). See below.
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Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
There is case-sensitive writing. Sure, you might ask yourself, is lower case needed. But it is there. This is supported by "Caps Lock" in different versions of operation. In order to write text in upper and lower case smoothly, it is recommended to use the SHIFT key to switch between the two!
Now Shift-K does numlock toggle, in the same way as Shift-J does caps lock toggle. Num Lock in alpha mode, changes the number block to be active and the alpha letters to be inactive until switched off or EXIT or ENTER.

(Caps lock remains possible using shift Up and shift Down in Alpha mode. Also g[Dn] works in alpha mode, but it is debatable whether g[Dn] is actually useful. The last three are not on the template and are unmarked shortcuts.)
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
So if you had no symbols directly on the keys and if you would use upper and lower case letters directly, there would be problems with the number block. You would need additional "Num Lock" to insert numbers as text.
Done. The shift-number still works as it always did, but in addition there is a numlock, symmetrical to caps lock.

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:55 am
In the status line the display of "Num Lock" is not (yet) supported. For lowered text and superscript numbers a different handling would be needed.
It now shows the fancy N (Natural number actually), instead of the a/A in the status bar. I propose to mark the template at shift K the same way as shift J bears the fancy C.

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:31 pm
So, A latching NumLock button and mode on shift K. There is already an a and A icon in the status bar on top indicating caps mode. This can be replaced with the fancy Capital (Natural Number) N if in num lock mode, as these modes are indeed mutually exclusive. I really like this idea.
Done

Currently, in numlock mode, the number block is active for use, and comprises 0123456789. with all other keys inactive except for EXIT, f/g, Backspace and ENTER, which operate as normal.

Question is, before I issue a release, are there any ideas on top of this that I should incorporate?

I can already think of a further easy improvement, i.e. to show "n" if f only is activated (next key will be a number), in fact, for the same trouble, it could actually be a general text mode indicator as follows:

Numlock: ℕ (in numlock mode)
Num: "n" for next key only f is activated
Upper Case: A
Lower Case: a (not 𝛂 as it is now)
Upper Case Greek (next key only if g is activated): Ω
(Any greek letter is ok. "A" and "Α" is a bit too similar though ;-). I think the Α-Ω parallel is cute so I suggest Ω for upper case Greek. Any other letter suggestion?)
Lower case Greek (next key only if g is activated): 𝞈
(Any greek letter is ok. "a" and "𝛂" too similar though. I think the 𝛂-𝛚 parallel is cute so I suggest 𝛚 representing lower case Greek. Other letter?)
Subscript (next key only): ↓
Superscript (next key only): ↑

Other ideas?

ps.
Δ/δ may work but is a bit geometric orientated
Π/𝝿 will differentiate well, but may be confusing
𝝣/ξ is also unmistakably Greek, but the 𝝣 may seem too foreign
Θ/ϑ can work well.
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Example with ℕ in status line.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) on DM42 sn. 03818 & 06199 for complex math, HP42S; HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

To illustrate what is currently under discussion, here is the current keyboard sequence to type "Pi^42":
[ 7 ]
f(SIN)
[Rv]
g(R/S)
[Up]
[Up]
g(FN2)
[EXIT]
f(EEX)
f( 4 )
f(EEX)
f( 2 )


"Caps Lock" is actually "INV Caps Lock", since "Caps Lock" is normally always on. Just mentioned by the way.
I welcome the introduction of "Num Lock" in alpha mode. In fact I could imagine that maybe the basic operators "+ - * /" should be directly accessible. I am not sure about '/' on [R/S]. From this point of view the HP42S always has "Num Lock" enabled.
I could also imagine that "Num Lock" can be switched on with g[Up] and switched off with g[Dn].

I find the changes in the status bar understandable, Omega seems to be suitable.


Short slide-in back to basic considerations. The HP41C had introduced ALPHA and does not have menus. In ALPHA mode there are the special characters on the shift positions of the keys. These special characters are documented by a foil glued to the back of the calculator. I e.g. always forget the position of APPEND. In the HP42S the letters are entered via menus. This provides a multiple of special characters compared to the HP41C. Small letters are supported by pressing Shift before pressing the letter. (Or is this an extension of Free42?) As I see it, there are three abbreviations, '%', 'Pi', 'E'. Probably they did not want a second line in MATH.
x43y do not have an ALPHA register. The AIM (Alpha Input Mode) finally affects register X. x43y is more oriented towards the HP41C. It supports lower case throughout, like the HP42S. Unlike the HP42S, however, lower case is not supported by the f-key, but you have to switch off "Caps Lock". There are many special characters in menus, for a few there are shortcuts.


My last post actually intended to reduce the number of symbols on the front panel, now I get one more...
I am still of the opinion that all special characters should be found in menus. (Concerning the special character on f(SQRT), I'm not sure if this character does not simply symbolize an 'O.K.'.) I also still think that you can do without shortcuts for special characters. This would allow the f- key to be the INV key for "Caps Lock". So that you can use the inverse for the currently activated "Caps Lock" thanks to the f-key. Of course it is also possible to provide the special characters in "Num Lock" mode, e.g. '%' and 'Pi' and so on.

"Caps Lock" and "Num Lock" can be set to f- and g- [Up] and [Dn] ( I hope so). Redundancy could be done with CheckBox. The special functions of lowered text and higher numbers should be remain: f- and g- [ENTER] are still free in AIM...
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

Dani R. wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:15 pm
To illustrate what is currently under discussion, here is the current keyboard sequence to type "Pi^42":
[ 7 ]
f(SIN)
[Rv]
g(R/S)
[Up]
[Up]
g(FN2)
[EXIT]
f(EEX)
f( 4 )
f(EEX)
f( 2 )
Just for comparison, the sequence on the 43S looks like this:
[down]
g( 8 )
g( - )
[down]
g(FN2)
f(EEX)
f( 4 )
f(EEX)
f( 2 )

FWIW.
DM42 SN: 00041 β
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-35S, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
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