43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun May 10, 2020 12:28 pm

RAPo wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:09 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:00 am
like it is done on the HP41X?
I am sorry, I do not know how it is done on the 41 series. I missed that generation completely, i.e. I have worked on the older ones and the newer ones but not the 41 series.
The manual is online https://www.swissmicros.com/dm41x/doc/d ... /#cst_menu. See par. 3.2.1
Thanx for the link.

There is only one file browser available in DMCP and I’m not sure if this is common throughout the DM42 platform. Either way I will experiment with it and try use it.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

jonmoore
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by jonmoore » Sun May 10, 2020 12:44 pm

dlachieze wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:18 am

I'm not a lefty so my question may seem naive: is it harder to use the Enter key on the left side than any of the keys above or below Enter (such as the operator keys on the 41 and RPN calculators before)?
Forgetting the left/right handedness preference for single handed use, the reason I've always preferred the classic HP calculators layout is that I've always felt that the enter key should be placed on the same side of the keyboard as the operator keys from a pure UX perspective (I'm a design strategist by trade). With RPN, the operator is at the end of each key sequence and the Enter key comes next so close placement and large hit area adds to the fluidity of the action.

Single handed use is a side benefit of the 43s/41x design (for someone who's right handed) but my preference for that design over the 42 layout is purely a UX thing. Interestingly enough, the master stroke on the 41x over the original 41 is the placement of the Gold and Alpha keys, which are very balanced for a UX where alpha entry is so prevalent. I'm still not a total fan of the stiffness of the DM... keyboard, but I far prefer a little stiffness over the typical flimsy keyboard action of most modern calculators.

I'm able to put up with the 50g keyboard for much the same rationale. even though the Enter key is tiny and the operator keys are on the right hand side of the layout, at least the enter key is still positioned in the same vicinity as the operators.

Having said all that, the engine room of interaction design is habit so regular use of most reasonable device layouts create a positive bias for it's idiosyncrasies. Someone with years of 42 style layout experience will more than likely have to overcome habitual interactions to adapt to something different. At the end of the day there will be some who want their 43 to more closely follow the 42 interaction conventions whilst others will have a preference Paul and Walter's original design.
Last edited by jonmoore on Sun May 10, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun May 10, 2020 12:54 pm

Nice read.
Thanx jonmoore. I like the statement below:
Having said all that, the engine room of interaction design is habit so regular use of most reasonable device layouts create a positive bias for it's idiosyncrasies.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

rprosperi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Sun May 10, 2020 1:28 pm

Nazar wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:26 am
The enter key is easier to use due to its size so it is more "reachable" if the operator keys are on the left. For right handed operation the original dm42 layout is easier at least for basic calculations but then again i wish there could be a model with the enter key on the right.
There is one! The HP-50g (and also the 49G+) has the Enter key on the bottom right corner of the keyboard. So, it's not the same double-wide key in the middle of the keyboard like I think you are implying, but it still may be easier to use, though the RPL that it uses is quite different from RPN.

Also, the HP Prime has a double-wide Enter key on the right-hand side. It's a really powerful machine with amazing capabilities, but not at all like HP's traditional RPN/RPL machines.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071, DM10L: 071/100

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sun May 10, 2020 2:17 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:54 pm
Nice read.
Thanx jonmoore. I like the statement below:
Having said all that, the engine room of interaction design is habit so regular use of most reasonable device layouts create a positive bias for it's idiosyncrasies.
I agree to that statement.

I also believe that great interaction design also shines outside of that engine room, i.e. before habits are made, while they're being made - and perhaps most when they're not made.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

jonmoore
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by jonmoore » Sun May 10, 2020 2:42 pm

rprosperi wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:28 pm

Also, the HP Prime has a double-wide Enter key on the right-hand side. It's a really powerful machine with amazing capabilities, but not at all like HP's traditional RPN/RPL machines.
I didn't mention the Prime in my last post but I find it a preferable UX to the 50g for the 'prime' reason that it features a double width Enter key above the operators.

I judge the Prime on the areas where it excels and for me that's primarily the implementation of Xcas; although the iOS app PocketCAS, which is also built upon Xcas is my preferred portable CAS solution, as it features a Mathematica style notebook interaction model (and very high quality graphing). One other thing I really like about the Prime is an area where it comes in for criticism - the separation of the Home and CAS views. I like the separation of the symbolic from the 'approximate'. It's not that it lacks bridging features, but I suppose it's different to the 50g and that created something of a backlash.

Judged as a calculator in the HP 'RPN' tradition, the Prime is an abysmal failure but judged on it's own merits it's a great piece of kit. My main problem with the Prime is that it's a calculator without a core audience. Here in Europe it's seen as an education centred calculator but it's use is banned by most examination boards outside of the International Baccalaureate. But due to HP's heavy education sector marketing, it doesn't have the word of mouth following in university level physical sciences and engineering (the sweet spot for the 50g) so it's caught as we say here in the UK, between pillar and post. It's a real pity as it's grass roots following has mean't that over time a good number of programs have been written for it, which can be freely downloaded from hpcalc.org. In the early years the Prime section of hpcalc.org was pure tumbleweed, but over the last few years a lot decent stuff has been uploaded. Maybe it's taken this long for folk to get there heads around yet another HP calculator programming language! :)

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sun May 10, 2020 3:16 pm

jonmoore wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:44 pm
Forgetting the left/right handedness preference for single handed use, the reason I've always preferred the classic HP calculators layout is that I've always felt that the enter key should be placed on the same side of the keyboard as the operator keys from a pure UX perspective (I'm a design strategist by trade). With RPN, the operator is at the end of each key sequence and the Enter key comes next so close placement and large hit area adds to the fluidity of the action.
Hear, hear! :D
This is also music for Massimo 8-)
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akaTB
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by akaTB » Sun May 10, 2020 4:01 pm

Walter wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:16 pm
jonmoore wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:44 pm
Forgetting the left/right handedness preference for single handed use, the reason I've always preferred the classic HP calculators layout is that I've always felt that the enter key should be placed on the same side of the keyboard as the operator keys from a pure UX perspective (I'm a design strategist by trade). With RPN, the operator is at the end of each key sequence and the Enter key comes next so close placement and large hit area adds to the fluidity of the action.
Hear, hear! :D
This is also music for Massimo 8-)
Right!
And directly from the expert's mouth. :ugeek:
Greetings,
    Massimo
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Olivier de Nantes
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Olivier de Nantes » Mon May 11, 2020 9:26 am

Walter wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:16 pm
jonmoore wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:44 pm
Forgetting the left/right handedness preference for single handed use, the reason I've always preferred the classic HP calculators layout is that I've always felt that the enter key should be placed on the same side of the keyboard as the operator keys from a pure UX perspective (I'm a design strategist by trade). With RPN, the operator is at the end of each key sequence and the Enter key comes next so close placement and large hit area adds to the fluidity of the action.
Hear, hear! :D
This is also music for Massimo 8-)
+1
Olivier de Nantes (Bretagne)


HP41 (x3 : 2CV / 1CX), HP 42S, HP 48G+, HP 71B, HP 15C LE, HP 35S, HP PRIME

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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Mon May 11, 2020 2:58 pm

per il massimo, veloce e sporco
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