43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by inautilus » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:39 pm

The coloured 'border' option was offered as an additional way to go ... if extra cost savings in hardware production were determined to be needed. I can only assume that there may be a not insignificant cost (and complexity) associated with the incorporation of a key in another completely different colour (in this case yellow).
f g alternate png 3 bold.jpg
f g alternate png 3 bold.jpg (105.2 KiB) Viewed 1031 times
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:56 am

inautilus wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:39 pm
The coloured 'border' option was offered as an additional way to go ... if extra cost savings in hardware production were determined to be needed. I can only assume that there may be a not insignificant cost (and complexity) associated with the incorporation of a key in another completely different colour (in this case yellow).
f g alternate png 3 bold.jpg
Brilliant!

If the shift key is black / dark like the others, I prefer the two-coloured border. With a coloured (yellow) shift key, I prefer borderless.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:28 am

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
I'm sorry H2X, the eagle is doing another quick round before tranquility ;-)
Houston, I don't have a problem with that... :-)
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
101. Swapped HOME & SAVE
Good!
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
102. Changed REGS and STATUS to RG.ST and BT.ST.
102a. I also tried REG.ST and BIT.ST, but it really makes the line full.
102b. I also tried R.ST and B.ST but after a while I start wondering what is R. And B.
102c. Another option is RG.BR and BT.BR close to the original RBR Register Browser.
OK.
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
104. Added CLSTK to HOME menu for easy access. This leads the question if I still need FILL.
Interesting! I thought this was carved in stone - perhaps it was only lunar soil... :-)
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
105. Name change: unit conversions (CONV) became [g] UNIT
106. Name change: deg>rad/etc (DRG>) became [f] CONV
OK.
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
107. Swapped FILL and STK with R< and >P (on the arrows) to group the stack ops. And the cost is only R and P vertically arranged on the stack. This is a test.
OK.
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
108. Swapped MODE, DISP & CLR to blue. I carefully tried both ways, and this sits better. This was mostly after realising Dani is right, in that my mouse finger starts double clicking if I think of a menu to access. This is a test - let's see.
Interesting! Now there's a contest between principles - this one vs. 42S legacy. I like that. And we should choose the worthy winner.

Actually, Dani's suggestion occured to me at some point but I think I suppressed it in my mind for being unrealistic, i.e. I didn't imagine that we'd be able to have all menus on the right and all non-menus on the left.
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
302. Put LastX on HOME menu, if not on button. Could take the place of x! On “L”.
I'd be happy with that!
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
304. To consider the need for HEX DEC OCT BIN on a menu (compare with # operation).
On a menu, I presume?
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
305. Ideas for a calculator name. Maybe WP43C. C for classic of course, and it fits into the model names/numbers.
What about WP43SA, nodding at you, Jaco? :-)
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:36 am

inautilus wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:38 pm
Jaco yellow fg key.jpg
Very nice.

The dots fit in so subtly and replace the ugly up-and left/right arrows that I considered (48S style).

It connects the shift button to the left and right labels efficiently.

Well done.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:47 am

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:36 am
inautilus wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:38 pm
Jaco yellow fg key.jpg
Very nice.

The dots fit in so subtly and replace the ugly up-and left/right arrows that I considered (48S style).

It connects the shift button to the left and right labels efficiently.

Well done.
I totally agree. With this labelling, I think our single shift key concept is complete.

THAT eagle has landed! :-)
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:15 am

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I think the currently conceivable maxima regarding alternative keyboard layout have been reached, at least one of the maxima. You could still debate small things like exchanging DROP and FILL, but I couldn't decide for myself if you follow logic (FILL at [g] [ENTER]) or if you follow usability FILL at [f] [x<>y].

Hello Jaco, two little remarks; You can save screenshots in PNG format, this takes up less space and the images are extremely sharp. And maybe you could edit the opening post again now and insert the link to this intermediate result.


I myself was of the opinion that I would prefer a calculator with only one Shift key at any time. But the (intermediate) result is so exciting to me that I can imagine using a calculator with this layout on a daily basis. This reminds me again of the clarity and beauty of a 29C. No, I didn't own a 29C myself.

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
...

305. Ideas for a calculator name. Maybe WP43C. C for classic of course, and it fits into the model names/numbers.

...
H2X wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:28 am
...

What about WP43SA, nodding at you, Jaco? :-)
I consider WP43C to be an appropriate name, WP43ZA is omitted, at best WP43CT could make sense?


Still a few things on my wish list, but which are not possible without work in the main team to implement.

I think the menus have to be reworked carefully. The function FILL in [STK] is missing at the moment. I think, there will lurk also still other small discrepancies, which will be solved however possibly by itself.

I think my idea of offering the constants in a list is still good. But this is a new functionality in the main project, which might never be accepted as a feature request. In this context, the functionality on [g] of the cursor keys Jump to first / last list element might also be needed.

The new LASTx function in the main project of course requires a feature request.

I hope [HOME] will open itself to me once completely. I have understood the basic idea. MyMenu and MyALPHA are also offered in the basic features of the WP43S. I'm not sure whether the ideas complement or compete with each other. Independently of that I have another idea, which would also influence the keyboard layout. Of course, this idea cannot be realized without further functionality in the main project. Briefly explained: If you removed DROP and FILL from the keyboard, you could set CPX to [g] [ENTER], LASTx to [f] [x<>y] and EXP to [g] [SIN]. If RTN were removed from [g] [TAN], there would be two free places, CUST1 [g] [COS] and CUST2 [g] [TAN]. Unlike MyMenu, CUST1 and CUST2 would be called explicitly and behave like a normal menu, except, of course, that you can edit the entries yourself. This allows you to better group your way of working by activity. Or you have already created the space for future add-on modules that need their own menu.


Enough dreaming, I am very happy with the current status.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 am

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:15 am
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I think the currently conceivable maxima regarding alternative keyboard layout have been reached, at least one of the maxima. You could still debate small things like exchanging DROP and FILL, but I couldn't decide for myself if you follow logic (FILL at [g] [ENTER]) or if you follow usability FILL at [f] [x<>y].
I am satisfied to let FILL go, as CLRSTK sits on a primary of HOME. I only used FILL to clear the stack. That means an open key. X! Is also negotiable for an open key.

Hello Jaco, two little remarks; You can save screenshots in PNG format, this takes up less space and the images are extremely sharp. And maybe you could edit the opening post again now and insert the link to this intermediate result.
I can’t screen capture the emulator due to some Mac vs. Quartz incompatibility. I snap the picture on my iPhone and upload directly to my site. I can try save in png from the iPhone if the app allows.

Also, I gave another few ideas in the mail below, before I link this to the intro page.


Jaymos wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
...

305. Ideas for a calculator name. Maybe WP43C. C for classic of course, and it fits into the model names/numbers.

...
H2X wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:28 am
...

What about WP43SA, nodding at you, Jaco? :-)
I consider WP43C to be an appropriate name, WP43ZA is omitted, at best WP43CT could make sense?
Of these names WP43C sits very well. I don’t care for SA or ZA or CT or a reference to me in the name. Walter [in jest I think] said JM43S some time ago, and I don’t like it.

I think the menus have to be reworked carefully. The function FILL in [STK] is missing at the moment. I think, there will lurk also still other small discrepancies, which will be solved however possibly by itself.
I suggest that you comment such discrepancies on the 43S News list. Walter appreciates it and takes immediate action on errors or omissions.

On my own todo list is also to check that ALL functions appear on the relevant menus regardless if it is on the keyboard or not.

If they don’t fix it, I will, on the fork. But the more I change, the more complicated updating from their master becomes.


The new LASTx function in the main project of course requires a feature request.
I will check if I can figure out how to add a function. The problem is that there is a numbered list of functions and if I manually add to that list I will make it difficult to maintain. (The function itself is very easy to do, it is the integration into a living project that scares me). Remember there is an awful lot that is still not done and I have to update my changes to their stuff manually every time I update to new source files.

I hope [HOME] will open itself to me once completely. I have understood the basic idea. MyMenu and MyALPHA are also offered in the basic features of the WP43S. I'm not sure whether the ideas complement or compete with each other.
I’m sure it competes. And the novelty to me is to extend the direct math portion with 6 more primaries with some duplication on easy to access math menus. I believe
If it competes it doesn’t matter. The purpose is easy of use despite duplication.

Independently of that I have another idea, which would also influence the keyboard layout.... CUST1 and CUST2 would be called explicitly and behave like a normal menu, except, of course, that you can edit the entries yourself.
I was thinking about this today and it is on my list already (to investigate). As I said, all functions have numbers and I was wondering if I could maybe make a menu with say six registers determining which functions to call. Dreaming as you say...
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:01 am

Ideas for comment:

Remove x! and shift it to a HOME menu primary. [f] CHS is then available.

Maybe bring INFO back to a key, belonging next to MODE, in place of x!

INFO to stay on HOME menu, regardless if on a button. Add MODE next to it on the HOME menu.

Regs and bit viewer: currently is
SHOW VIEW RG.ST BT.ST
more options:
SHOW VIEW REG.V BIT.V or
SHOW VIEW V.REG V.BIT
The V integrates nicely with. VIEW next to it.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:00 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:01 am
Ideas for comment:

Remove x! and shift it to a HOME menu primary. [f] CHS is then available.

Maybe bring INFO back to a key, belonging next to MODE, in place of x!

INFO to stay on HOME menu, regardless if on a button. Add MODE next to it on the HOME menu.

Regs and bit viewer: currently is
SHOW VIEW RG.ST BT.ST
more options:
SHOW VIEW REG.V BIT.V or
SHOW VIEW V.REG V.BIT
The V integrates nicely with. VIEW next to it.
Looking at the keyboard, there is already X.FN a.FN and P.FN as examples where FN clearly says FUNCTIONS.

Therefore R.VW B.VW are also strong options. I like these as VW clearly says VIEW and ST can be confused for stack, status, steer, etc. VW could of course be the german car maker...
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
WP43C running on DM42 sn. 03818 .

Dani R.
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:40 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:00 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:01 am
Ideas for comment:

Remove x! and shift it to a HOME menu primary. [f] CHS is then available.

Maybe bring INFO back to a key, belonging next to MODE, in place of x!

INFO to stay on HOME menu, regardless if on a button. Add MODE next to it on the HOME menu.

Regs and bit viewer: currently is
SHOW VIEW RG.ST BT.ST
more options:
SHOW VIEW REG.V BIT.V or
SHOW VIEW V.REG V.BIT
The V integrates nicely with. VIEW next to it.
Looking at the keyboard, there is already X.FN a.FN and P.FN as examples where FN clearly says FUNCTIONS.

Therefore R.VW B.VW are also strong options. I like these as VW clearly says VIEW and ST can be confused for stack, status, steer, etc. VW could of course be the german car maker...
I'm not good at these things.
Display?
Content?
Shouldn't BT be something with FLAGS since the flags are monitored here (Global flag status)?

Maybe you fall back to [RBR] and have [GFS] instead of BT.ST. Not very intuitive and elegant. Something with a DOT makes sense.
DM42 SN:00032

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