WP43 Alternative key layout --> C43

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Bill K. - USA wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:29 pm
And BTW you have an older version of the User manual: the footnote 92 Walter is referring to says:
You may be used to a calculator label LOG or log for the decadic logarithm; though this is a mathematically ambiguous notation, so we avoided it (cf. ISO 80000, 2-12.5 and 2-12.6; see also https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/pdf/sp811.pdf, p. 33, 10.1.2).
Right you are, tx ... it helps to open the correct file, which I did and I now can confirm.
It does not help having older versions all over the hard drive ;-)
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
H2X wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:29 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:26 pm
Whatever happened to the principle: "less is more"?
Not sure what you mean by it in this context. Please explain!
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
Constructive criticism is always good and welcome, though. However, "less is more" is a bit vague, and if you take it too literally you might end up with nothing.

You did also mention UX, which is something we (the alternative layout guys) have thought about a lot.

In our case, as Jaymos has pointed out, the DM42 keyboard, i.e. the labels on the keys and the single yellow shift key, were initial conditions which we chose to accept. Our shift key behaviour is one example of UX which may not appeal to all, and there are other novelties as well. It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but we suspect they will grow on most people given a little bit of time.
Last edited by H2X on Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What is the metric tensor in imperial units?
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
H2X wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:29 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:26 pm
Whatever happened to the principle: "less is more"?
Not sure what you mean by it in this context. Please explain!
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
You are welcome to place it here - as H2X said, as long as we know which layout you are referring to.

Just for info, the initial reason I forked the project into C43 (common model name) or the WP43C (Gitlab and code name) was to retain the DM42 white key layout, in other words to retain the / x - + sequence and position. One thing lead to another and as H2X explained above himself, H2X (if memory serves) designed the multi-shift single shift key concept (a concept without which the fork would not have been feasible) - and the rest of the UI changes followed similarly to retain more of the HP42S style.

Another important conceptual layout difference is that WP43S shows every single key function on the keyboard with afaik no hidden keys. Due to C43 keeping it cleaner, there are obviously less key functions in use and therefore it requires a more menu use, for example for the Greek letters and also a few other things. Also note the lack of special characters - the concept is to rather have a cleaner keyboard to see the fewer letters better, and for that the penalty is increased menu activity. Also, due to the emptier keyboard there are a few unlabeled key shortcuts - for example changing the case using arrows, num lock etc. during text entry and some more. You may forget which keys, but then it is not required to remember as those are all on the menu, clear for all to see.

Let's place the layouts next to one another - I have not done a pic like that for some time - in fact way before the last changes were done on the key layouts on both sides:


Clipboard04.png
Clipboard04.png (233.06 KiB) Viewed 1858 times
(Note that the line on the C43 screen is a Windows artifact: the shift key picks up and shows the f- then the g- shift line in succession on the calculator simulator when I press Shift-Windows-S to capture the screen grab ! )
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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PierreMengisen
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by PierreMengisen »

I really like the layout of the C43. I find it more readable and intuitive. But let's be honest, it's all a matter of habit.

As for writing logarithms, I consulted all my study guides and in all domains (maths, physics, chemistry) I found the same rules:
- a logarithm is represented by log (in lower case)
- the base of calculation is represented by a value in low index
- the neperian log is abbreviated as ln (lower case)
- log in base 10 is abbreviated as log (lower case and without base indication)
logs.jpg
logs.jpg (12.91 KiB) Viewed 1846 times
LOG and LN do not exist (scientifically speaking)
Pierre
[TI59 with PC100C; TI-84 Plus CE-T; HP41CV with HP IL loop & 2*82161A DCD & 82162 TP; HP15C; HP28S; DM41; DM41L; DM42; DM41X]
redglyph
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by redglyph »

Well, I've never written SIN and COS either, but functions are usually upper-case on calculators keys for the sake of clarity (is it specified that it must be lower-case?). I wouldn't worry too much about that.

PS: Seeing 'ln' and 'lg' as the only lower-case functions makes me thing they behave differently, actually.
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RJvM
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RJvM »

Walter wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:16 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
(Emphasis added)

In what aspect? And 'getting more complicated' points to an ongoing process - where is ist?
To be clear, I meant the discussions exploring various interface variations (esp. wrt. logarithms) just before I placed my comment. I understand that the 43S layout is stable, so no offense. I would be happy with both the S and the C layout, btw. No need to muddy the basic decisions. I am glad with the elaboration on the decisions so far, also.
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:05 pm
I would be happy with both the S and the C layout, btw.
FWIW, even if I am on the C team, I have committed to buying an S as well.

They have different aesthetics, and while there is more that meets the eye on the faceplate of the S, the remarkable thing is that it is all given an amazing amount of thought and care. Everything is where it is for a reason. Though less intuitive for me (no offence whatsover, it's just stating the obvious given my part in coming up with a different design), I am certainly going to enjoy wrapping my brain around it.
What is the metric tensor in imperial units?
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rudi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rudi »

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:59 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
H2X wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:29 pm


Not sure what you mean by it in this context. Please explain!
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
You are welcome to place it here - as H2X said, as long as we know which layout you are referring to.

Just for info, the initial reason I forked the project into C43 (common model name) or the WP43C (Gitlab and code name) was to retain the DM42 white key layout, in other words to retain the / x - + sequence and position. One thing lead to another and as H2X explained above himself, H2X (if memory serves) designed the multi-shift single shift key concept (a concept without which the fork would not have been feasible) - and the rest of the UI changes followed similarly to retain more of the HP42S style.

Another important conceptual layout difference is that WP43S shows every single key function on the keyboard with afaik no hidden keys. Due to C43 keeping it cleaner, there are obviously less key functions in use and therefore it requires a more menu use, for example for the Greek letters and also a few other things. Also note the lack of special characters - the concept is to rather have a cleaner keyboard to see the fewer letters better, and for that the penalty is increased menu activity. Also, due to the emptier keyboard there are a few unlabeled key shortcuts - for example changing the case using arrows, num lock etc. during text entry and some more. You may forget which keys, but then it is not required to remember as those are all on the menu, clear for all to see.

Let's place the layouts next to one another - I have not done a pic like that for some time - in fact way before the last changes were done on the key layouts on both sides:



Clipboard04.png

(Note that the line on the C43 screen is a Windows artifact: the shift key picks up and shows the f- then the g- shift line in succession on the calculator simulator when I press Shift-Windows-S to capture the screen grab ! )
I really like the C43 layout, artithmetic keys in the “right” side and logarithmic and their inverse on separate keys.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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dlachieze
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by dlachieze »

Any idea when the C43 bezel will be available for order?
DM42: 00425 - DM41X: β00066 - WP43: 00042
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akaTB
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by akaTB »

rudi wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:41 pm
I really like the C43 layout, artithmetic keys in the “right” side and logarithmic and their inverse on separate keys.
Left is right and right is wrong.
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    Massimo
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-+×÷ left is right and right is wrong :twisted: Casted in gold
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