WP43 Alternative key layout --> C43

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

redglyph wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:00 am

Actually, these exp- and log-related keys could have a configurable base, the same way rad/deg/grad and the display are configured depending on the usage. The user would select 10, e or 2. But it would mean only one base at a time on the keyboard or it would be awkward. I'm not sure it's a good idea, perhaps in cases where there aren't enough keys?

There are already existing commands for three bases: 10, e and 2. I do not really think it is worth making flexible commands for remembering the last used base like 7 or what else would warrant the effort?

On the WP43S:
[f] ASN [f] CATALOG FCNS lb [ln] easily changes the ln key to lb.
[f] ASN [f] CATALOG FCNS 2^x [\(e^{x}\)] easily changes the \(e^{x}\) key to \(2^{x}\).
[f] USER

Or equally you can change them to the base 10 commands.
Clipboard03.png
Clipboard03.png (13.71 KiB) Viewed 1774 times
Which would work like this, even though the white keys do not change appearance and will still read ln and e^x.

On the keyboard of the C43 (which inherits the white keys of the DM42), that is less convenient as the keys will not suggest the right actions still reading LOG LN.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

rudi wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:02 am
Exactly redglyph!

Base 10 is more intuitive for me to relate to. If log of one number minus log of another is ca 3, I know that they are ca three magnitudes (1000) times in difference. Thats why I find base 10 log easier to understand and work with.
Base 10 is way more intuitive I agree, but when using logs, I use base e more. Depends what you need to calculate of course.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
redglyph
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by redglyph »

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:48 am
On the WP43S:
[f] ASN [f] CATALOG FCNS lb [ln] easily changes the ln key to lb.
[f] ASN [f] CATALOG FCNS 2^x [\(e^{x}\)] easily changes the \(e^{x}\) key to \(2^{x}\).
[f] USER

Or equally you can change them to the base 10 commands.
That's true, the user mode which allows to change any key is a good potential work-around. It can even be used as a series of tiny programs switching between bases and displaying a user flag accordingly.
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RJvM
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RJvM »

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:48 am
redglyph wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:00 am

Actually, these exp- and log-related keys could have a configurable base, the same way rad/deg/grad and the display are configured depending on the usage. The user would select 10, e or 2. But it would mean only one base at a time on the keyboard or it would be awkward. I'm not sure it's a good idea, perhaps in cases where there aren't enough keys?
There are already existing commands for three bases: 10, e and 2. I do not really think it is worth making flexible commands for remembering the last used base like 7 or what else would warrant the effort?

On the WP43S:
[f] ASN [f] CATALOG FCNS lb [ln] easily changes the ln key to lb.
[f] ASN [f] CATALOG FCNS 2^x [\(e^{x}\)] easily changes the \(e^{x}\) key to \(2^{x}\).
[f] USER

Or equally you can change them to the base 10 commands.

Clipboard03.png

Which would work like this, even though the white keys do not change appearance and will still read ln and e^x.

On the keyboard of the C43 (which inherits the white keys of the DM42), that is less convenient as the keys will not suggest the right actions still reading LOG LN.
Whatever happened to the principle: "less is more"?
I would propose to let this + cleanliness of overall (UX) design be of highest priority.
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:26 pm

Whatever happened to the principle: "less is more"?
I still very much like the principle which is one of the reasons the C43 layout is as tightly lined up with HP42S as we could, and with as few add-ons to the keyboard as was reasonable, bearing in mind the fantastic increase in key requirements.

I would propose to let this + cleanliness of overall (UX) design be of highest priority.

I am not sure what you mean to change. Could you please be more specific?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:26 pm
Whatever happened to the principle: "less is more"?
Not sure what you mean by it in this context. Please explain! :-)
Last edited by H2X on Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What is the metric tensor in imperial units?
Bill K. - USA
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Bill K. - USA »

Walter wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:58 am
Bill K. - USA wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:51 am
Walter wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:21 am
I don't claim comprehending all of them (also the widespread use of LOG instead of LG).
LG is not parallel with LN, plus the LOG nomenclature has history on its side. I learned logs in the 70's, and the base-10 ones were called LOG back then. And LG would probably have to be L10 or LD to be parallel with LN.
Please see the Owner's Manual, footnote 92.
Yes, I had read this footnote earlier, but I assert that "LG" is as mathematically ambiguous a notation as "LOG" is--they both are abbreviations for "logarithm" and neither specify the base.
Bill K. - USA
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Bill K. - USA »

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:31 am
I cannot say what nuclear waste in footnote 92 has to do with this discussion, but I can confirm that the C43 has LOG / LN on the white keys, with the opposite on the yellow \(10^{x}\) and \(e^{x}\) as per DM42.
. . .
(I do dislike the use of lg instead of LOG).
. . .
some things may have half lives while the WP43S white keys already seem cast in concrete; maybe exactly that, is the meaning of Walter's reference to footnote 92.
I too like LOG more than LG, but I can live with the latter.

And BTW you have an older version of the User manual: the footnote 92 Walter is referring to says:
You may be used to a calculator label LOG or log for the decadic logarithm; though this is a mathematically ambiguous notation, so we avoided it (cf. ISO 80000, 2-12.5 and 2-12.6; see also https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/pdf/sp811.pdf, p. 33, 10.1.2).
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RJvM
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RJvM »

H2X wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:29 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:26 pm
Whatever happened to the principle: "less is more"?
Not sure what you mean by it in this context. Please explain!
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
(Emphasis added)

In what aspect? And 'getting more complicated' points to an ongoing process - where is ist?
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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