WP43 Alternative key layout --> C43

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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:40 pm
In C43 we use 4 more plurals, of which REGS (register browser) and FLGS (flag browser) need to stay plural due to the strong connection to 100+ registers and flags they refer to. However, in order to stay closer to the concept, SUMS (WP43S: Σ) could well become SUM, and KEYS (not in WP43S) could well become KEY. KEY would actually work well as it is located next to ASN, forming ASN KEY, which makes more sense in singular from that point of view anyway.
Singular or plural. An exciting and difficult question. In fact, the corresponding menu in the HP 42S is called FLAGS. In retrospect, one has to ask how HP came up with this solution back then, except that there was enough space, of course. I can't think of any reason to stick with FLAGS and PARTS.

For obvious reasons, the INTS menu is still called INTS. I just wonder in the case of the C43, whether one leaves therefore for "symmetry reasons" the menu BITS with BITS.

If one has less labels in the plural on the front panel, SUM could be sufficiently meaningful.

REGS and FLGS are well introduced, icons had not imposed themselves and another font for REGS and FLGS would be only a gimmick, which would increase the unrest on the front panel unnecessarily. I also see no reason to want to change anything here.

In the KEYS menu, there are some commands that can change a lot of key bindings at once. This could justify leaving this identifier at KEYS, possibly not of course.
C47(DM42) SN:00032 WP43 SN:00016
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

As you say interesting...

Your thoughts made me analyze the lot: Looking at the DM42 keyboard, I see
  • MODES & FLAGS plural. Of course both refer to multiple modes and multiple flag functions.
  • STAT & BASE singular. Of course STAT refers to multiple statistics functions and BASE refers to multiple bases.
It does not get easier.

In C43 we have
  • REGS & FLGS which stay like that.
  • MODE which must stay singular and short due to a very dense area of the keyboard.
  • EQN, CNST, MATX, X.FN, STAT, BASE, UNIT, P.FN which are singular but refer to multiple items.
  • SUMS, FLAGS, BITS, INTS, KEYS, PARTS which are plural and refer to multiple items.
SUMS: it is congested - we might as well shorten to SUM. I see no reason to keep SUMS.

FLAGS: Starting with the HP42S legacy: Since MODES already changed to MODE, FLAGS can too. STAT and BASE already are singular. That means we do not carry over any plurals from the HP42S. It is even better with more differentiation between FLGS and FLAG. Cool.
  • BITS: I see no reason to keep BITS. Can change to BIT.
  • INTS: must stay plural for a reason: to remove confusion with IP, integer, longint, shortint, etc.
  • KEYS: there are literally hundreds of pre-packed key bindings, so for the same reason as REGS & FLGS, I think it can stay KEYS.
  • PARTS: I see no reason to keep PARTS. Can change to PART. Looks more compact.
So in the end, I propose to keep INTS and KEYS, in addition to REGS and FLGS, as plurals.

More ideas?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. »

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:39 pm
  • BITS: I see no reason to keep BITS. Can change to BIT.

    More ideas?

AND and OR are functions that can change more than a single bit. XOR definitely changes more than a single bit. For me BITS looks a bit more "correct". But I can't justify it more exactly and may be wrong with my opinion.
C47(DM42) SN:00032 WP43 SN:00016
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Dani R. wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:05 am
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:39 pm
  • BITS: I see no reason to keep BITS. Can change to BIT.

    More ideas?

AND and OR are functions that can change more than a single bit. XOR definitely changes more than a single bit. For me BITS looks a bit more "correct".
I am not hell bent on uniformity. We already have 4 valid exceptions, therefore keeping BITS makes sense.

Concept for change was clear - declutter where reasonable; and we do well with SUM, and FLAG & PART from 43S.

> In the end, we propose to keep INTS, BITS and KEYS, in addition to REGS and FLGS, as plurals. All others singular.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

You can find good arguments for writing labels like BITS, PARTS, KEYS, etc. in plural. OTOH, you will find good arguments for labels in singular. At the bottom line, it's a more matter of de-cluttering than singular vs. plural. Plus you will want to avoid misunderstandings. Hence INTS is kept on the 43S, everything else became singular or even symbolic like PRINT and Σ (symbolic is preferable since being more international than English abbreviations).

BTW, what's the difference between FLGS and FLAG on the 43C?
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

... or even symbolic like PRINT and Σ (symbolic is preferable since being more international than English abbreviations)
I am aware of your icons for the printer and timer and also SUM, but I do not like that, and I prefer the anglo-centred text labels in the classical style.

FLGS is the name for the flag browser which I prefer to be on the key surface, right underneath the REGS browser.

In addition to the standard 43S flag browser, it starts with the two "old" type flags browser screens which you abandoned long time ago. STATUS (in the FLAG menu) on the other hand, starts the flag browser on the standard STATUS page for compatibility. I have had positive feedback that the old flag browser is needed.
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Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
jwiede
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by jwiede »

For what it's worth, when I just encounter a splatter of symbol glyphs among a sea of text labels, I find it very jarring. Dealing with symbol glyphs requires a "mode change" in how I mentally have to "decode" and recall the usage, and while okay for a few special (usually mathematically "obvious") cases like sigma, I MUCH prefer text glyph labels over symbol glyphs. Apparently HP felt similarly, as that's a reliable and dominant usage pattern in their labeling.
DM42, DM16L, and a menagerie of HPs thanks to CAS (Calc Acq Syndrome)!
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

jwiede wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:01 pm
... I MUCH prefer text glyph labels over symbol glyphs. Apparently HP felt similarly, as that's a reliable and dominant usage pattern in their labeling.
The dominance of that 'usage pattern' indicates people of one language were designing for people of the same language. Probability is high that those people welcome that design - all other people on this planet won't. Thus, one can call it national or reck... ummh... thoughtless design.

Companies designing for international customers come to different solutions. Look to design by Dieter Rams who worked for Braun, Otl Aicher who designed for the Olympic Games in Munich, Apple's industrial design, etc. Traffic signs are another good example for symbols understood by people of many languages (well, I'm not talking about PED XING here).

At the bottom line, good symbols serve their purpose better than text - except for those happy people speaking the same language.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X »

Walter wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:55 pm
jwiede wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:01 pm
... I MUCH prefer text glyph labels over symbol glyphs. Apparently HP felt similarly, as that's a reliable and dominant usage pattern in their labeling.
The dominance of that 'usage pattern' indicates people of one language were designing for people of the same language. Probability is high that those people welcome that design - all other people on this planet won't. Thus, one can call it national or reck... ummh... thoughtless design.

Companies designing for international customers come to different solutions. Look to design by Dieter Rams who worked for Braun, Otl Aicher who designed for the Olympic Games in Munich, Apple's industrial design, etc. Traffic signs are another good example for symbols understood by people of many languages (well, I'm not talking about PED XING here).

At the bottom line, good symbols serve their purpose better than text - except for those happy people speaking the same language.
Yet, there are plenty of clearly English language references there already, both in menus and on the keys and faceplate. Even on the original 43S. And the mathematical and scientific people I have met seem quite unfazed by this. They even seem eager to learn and use the ubiquitous language which is English.

Granted, there is already a mix, given there are plenty of mathematical symbols there as well - but - these are well established in the context of calculators.

Whether any other symbol would work better than text remains unclear to me.

PS: I used the term ubiquitous language on purpose.
Last edited by H2X on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Thus, one can call it national or reck... ummh... thoughtless design.
Thoughtless is not the opposite of thoughtful and thoughtless it was not. Purpose comes to mind. Or better maybe intention. But not thoughtless.

I purposefully decided to make it English text based. Some time ago we had in addition to the icons previously inherited from 43S, even more icons of my making on the plate: like a house icon for HOME, a caps lock icon, a printer icon for PRN and some other icons as well. All of that were intentionally removed in favour of the classic HP style.

I had no choice in the effect the HP style had on me in their selection of text for my 11C, 28C, 32SII and 42S and I don't plan to change that on my C43. I am glad though to hear from non-English-natives, folks other than me who also want to have English-based key labels; or at worst, do not mind English based text. Interestingly, I do have my Google language set to my mother tongue, and every single time I would google something, I would find it frightening to not see English results on screen;-)
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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