WP43 Alternative key layout --> C43

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
dspersinger
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by dspersinger »

Hello All,

Not sure this is right place for this question...


I have not been on the forum often, but I need some help please. I have searched and cannot find a thread in existence that tells me how to recover.

I loaded my DM42 (#258) successfully with version 106f. I then tried to load the "latest" C43 version. The calculator now hangs after pressing EXIT key to continue...

It shows " Loading XEQM:1" on the screen and never moves forward. Paper clip reset just takes me back to the start where the process begins all over again.

How can I get back to the load program menu so I can reload a new version (or back to 42)?
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

Hi

Yes it is the right place.

We need to determine what version did you load when you say the latest C43.

I also need to determine whether it maybe is the last version for QSPI or no-QSPI. (Loading this incorrectly will likely have a different outcome without starting the XEQM msg, but we need to know anyway)

Please advise the release file name which contains the version number, as well as the last file name which you loaded.

Please send me a PM with the details. We can take it from there.

Also, for good measure, before you respond, connect as flash drive from pc, make sure you copy the correct PROGRAMS folder (from the same zip distro) to the root drive.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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rudi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rudi »

... moved post here from another thread that I accidently flooded :oops:
This post, which I have cleared now: viewtopic.php?p=23637#p23637


I still don’t get the choice of key layout for logarithmic functions. On many other calculators, it is common to have a function on a key and it’s inverse on the shifted key. This feels natural.

43S:
43s logarithmic keys.jpg
43s logarithmic keys.jpg (4.38 KiB) Viewed 1772 times


HP42S/DM42/HP41/DM41 and a lot of other calculators:
1DDA2AEB-CE47-41F8-BC11-7A6EBD0CA84B.png
1DDA2AEB-CE47-41F8-BC11-7A6EBD0CA84B.png (33.17 KiB) Viewed 1772 times
Making the LN/e^x and LOG/10^x the same way as DM42/DM41 and all the others, wouldn't require additional keys or space, simply shift some labels ;-)



On the 43S LN and e^x are both primary keys where as LOG and 10^x are both shifted.
Unless the base 10 log is extremely rarely used, I don’t get it. Actually, I think I use LOG and 10^x more ;-)

I have made the same comments for the upcoming DM32, which has the same logarithmic layout.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

Depends. When I was in school, I didn't learn anything about Euler's e. At university, we became aware that e is one of the most important universal mathematical constants. So, mathematically, e^x is certainly more important than 10^x (and 2^x), and thus, ln is more important than lg (and lb). This is the reason for having [e^x] and [ln] primary and [10^x] as well as [lg] secondary (g-shifted) on the WP43S (and 2^x and lb in EXP).

Other manufacturers of calculators may have other (also technological) reasons for their layouts. I don't claim comprehending all of them (also the widespread use of LOG instead of LG).
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
Bill K. - USA
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Bill K. - USA »

Walter wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:21 am
I don't claim comprehending all of them (also the widespread use of LOG instead of LG).
LG is not parallel with LN, plus the LOG nomenclature has history on its side. I learned logs in the 70's, and the base-10 ones were called LOG back then. And LG would probably have to be L10 or LD to be parallel with LN.

Worse, in my mind, is XNOR.

But I fully agree with you that e^x is a primary function!
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rudi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rudi »

I agree that we disagree ;-)
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

Bill K. - USA wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:51 am
Walter wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:21 am
I don't claim comprehending all of them (also the widespread use of LOG instead of LG).
LG is not parallel with LN, plus the LOG nomenclature has history on its side. I learned logs in the 70's, and the base-10 ones were called LOG back then. And LG would probably have to be L10 or LD to be parallel with LN.
Please see the Owner's Manual, footnote 92.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

rudi wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:37 am
... moved post here from another thread that I accidently flooded :oops:
I still don’t get the choice of key layout for logarithmic functions. On many other calculators, it is common to have a function on a key and it’s inverse on the shifted key. This feels natural.
..
HP42S/DM42/HP41/DM41 and a lot of other calculators:
..
Making the LN/e^x and LOG/10^x the same way as DM42/DM41 and all the others, wouldn't require additional keys or space, simply shift some labels ;-)

On the 43S LN and e^x are both primary keys where as LOG and 10^x are both shifted.
Unless the base 10 log is extremely rarely used, I don’t get it. Actually, I think I use LOG and 10^x more ;-)


I cannot say what nuclear waste in footnote 92 has to do with this discussion, but I can confirm that the C43 has LOG / LN on the white keys, with the opposite on the yellow \(10^{x}\) and \(e^{x}\) as per DM42.

I do find myself liking the unshifted ln / \(e^{x}\) on WP43S white keys since base 10 imho is used less than base e. (I do dislike the use of lg instead of LOG). I do like the known pioneer HP42S layout of LOG / LN on white keys even more though, which is the C43 basis and also rudi's standardization point. I do get Walter's point as he had the opportunity to re-imagine the keyboard and having ln / \(e^{x}\) available unshifted is good.

I emphasize that from a "standardization" point there is no "right" as even the founding fathers at HP flopped around a bit in their approaches with the "logs" - see what they did with HP32S vs HP42S vs HP11C vs HP35S just to name a few recent ones. It seems they had musical chairs in mind.

I can note that converging to a final layout has not been an easy task for both C43 and WP43S. But let me speculate a bit on the issues at hand should WP43S ever consider a change to the direct ancestor HP42S:
  • unlike most (other) layout changes, there would be little repercussions on the other WP43S calc modes, as the four functions can simply be re-arranged.
  • there is the additional benefit (also as per C43) that .d, which is a VERY important decimal/10 based command, will also then be grouped on the "10" base key, which is good to think all "10" issues are on that key.
  • sticking to the HP42S legacy albeit no standard.
as opposed to:
  • re-imagining another sequence even though with good foundation
  • re-imagining the spelling of LOG.
Having said all of this - I really do not think canvassing this will be successful - some things may have half lives while the WP43S white keys already seem cast in concrete; maybe exactly that, is the meaning of Walter's reference to footnote 92.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
redglyph
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by redglyph »

rudi wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:51 am
I agree that we disagree ;-)
I must admit I'm using the base e more often too, but I've also noticed that it depends a lot on the field of science.

The base e is often used when time-domain analysis and system stability analysis are involved, especially when there are integrals, derivative and differential calculus, because of they tend to appear in the results. But whenever large-scale quantities are analyzed, like in chemistry and astronomy, base 10 is preferred because it's the base we've been taught at school and it's easier to interpret (blame how many fingers we have - if we had e fingers we wouldn't be discussing this - it would take too much time to type).

Both are pretty important on a calculator in my opinion, even if a multiplication by a constant can convert from one to the other.

Base 2 is often used in digital microelectronics and software too (and maybe in biology and molecular biology?), but it's mostly key values that are easier to memorize than using a calculator, at least I've rarely felt the use for it except when a new generation of CPU with a larger datapath appears. ;)

EDIT: now that calculators are easier to connect to PCs, it would be interesting to gather anonymous function usage statistics to have a more rational approach to key assignment. We can see here how it can be subjective. :D

Actually, these exp- and log-related keys could have a configurable base, the same way rad/deg/grad and the display are configured depending on the usage. The user would select 10, e or 2. But it would mean only one base at a time on the keyboard or it would be awkward. I'm not sure it's a good idea, perhaps in cases where there aren't enough keys?
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rudi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rudi »

Exactly redglyph!

Base 10 is more intuitive for me to relate to. If log of one number minus log of another is ca 3, I know that they are ca three magnitudes (1000) times in difference. Thats why I find base 10 log easier to understand and work with.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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