WP43 Alternative key layout --> C43

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redglyph
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by redglyph »

Walter wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:58 am
Usually, i.e. when you print, write, or read mathematical functions, many are lower case, like sin, cos, arctan, sinh, arcosh, ln, e^x, lg, etc. We kept most of them this way on the WP43S.
We agree on the writing part. :) But on devices, at least for the calculators I know, it's always been in upper case because it's less ambiguous ('l' vs 'I' and that sort of things) and it avoids the descenders (part of letters under the baseline); all other ops are written in uppercase too so it has a coherent look.

My understanding is that you decided to use uppercase for menus on key faces because underline wouldn't fit well there, lowercase for mathematical and type/conversion operations, and uppercase for other non-menu operations (SNAP, USER, FILL, DROP, LBL, GTO, ...). So there's some logic to it, but since it's only 2 mathematical lowercase operations it stands out a little (ln, lg).

In any case, what I mean was that when I discovered the keyboard for the first time, the mix felt a little odd. Perhaps it's just me.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

nlj2 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:22 pm
This image raises a few (superficial) questions about the C43 layout:
1. Why are the letters "N" and "Y" white, while the other letters are grey?
2. Why are COS and TAN underlined in orange and blue (respectively)?
3. It's difficult to know which keys bring up menus because the black background of their labels on the bezel is very hard to see against the very dark grey (brown?) of the rest of the bezel -- more contrast seems called for!
I love these questions which give the opportunity to reflect on prior design decisions of the team:

1. I started doing the bold Y and N on the old WP34C/S bezel stickers and I continued the use thereof on C43. Its intention is to aid the eye in finding the Y/N response button when one of those few: "are you sure y/n" questions are posed by the calculator. Yes, it can be debated whether it skews the otherwise uniform look, but I prefer the certainty of not pressing the wrong Y/N.

2. The underlines on COS and TAN are subtle guides for when the alternative USER mode key layout is used. This layout uses the f/g keys as shown, but since the target DM42 hardware has no coloured keys, these lines on the bezel help the eye locate f and g on DM42 keys.
Clipboard05a.png
Clipboard05a.png (54.49 KiB) Viewed 1520 times
The option "C43 ALT" in the KEYS menu above, pre-selects USER key allocations for [Σ+], [SIN], [COS] and [TAN] as above. [SIN] calls the TRIG menu while [COS] has f and [TAN] has g in similar style to WP43S. [Σ+] changes to a comfortable way to switch USER mode on and off. These allocations are simply normal USER key allocations and can be cancelled or changed as necessary.

3. The images given in my prior post are from the simulators. WP43S has a conscious effort to make their simulator look exactly as the hardware where the simulator on C43 is not picture perfect. I believe the contrast issue that you highlight is due to a simulator colour effect. The C43 contrast is sufficient on the artwork for the metal plate.

3b. The reason for C43 simulator not being picture perfect is that on C43 simulator the bezel and key labels change accordingly when changing to USER mode, where WP43S simulates the real hardware and therefore that is picture perfect and labels therefore do not change in USER mode.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
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rudi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rudi »

I’ve been noticing how I use my DM42 and HP-42 at work and home. And now I’m convinced, that it would be inconvenient for me, that the trigonometric functions aren’t on primary keys. I could probably get used to the awkward (to me ;-)) placement of logarithmic functions. But the trigonometric functions on primary keys with the inverse in shifted, is something I use on a daily basis. C43 rules! :-D
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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RJvM
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RJvM »

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:59 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
H2X wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:29 pm


Not sure what you mean by it in this context. Please explain!
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. I think I like the wp43c layout better, so maybe I should have placed my comment not in this thread.
You are welcome to place it here - as H2X said, as long as we know which layout you are referring to.

Just for info, the initial reason I forked the project into C43 (common model name) or the WP43C (Gitlab and code name) was to retain the DM42 white key layout, in other words to retain the / x - + sequence and position. One thing lead to another and as H2X explained above himself, H2X (if memory serves) designed the multi-shift single shift key concept (a concept without which the fork would not have been feasible) - and the rest of the UI changes followed similarly to retain more of the HP42S style.

Another important conceptual layout difference is that WP43S shows every single key function on the keyboard with afaik no hidden keys. Due to C43 keeping it cleaner, there are obviously less key functions in use and therefore it requires a more menu use, for example for the Greek letters and also a few other things. Also note the lack of special characters - the concept is to rather have a cleaner keyboard to see the fewer letters better, and for that the penalty is increased menu activity. Also, due to the emptier keyboard there are a few unlabeled key shortcuts - for example changing the case using arrows, num lock etc. during text entry and some more. You may forget which keys, but then it is not required to remember as those are all on the menu, clear for all to see.

Let's place the layouts next to one another - I have not done a pic like that for some time - in fact way before the last changes were done on the key layouts on both sides:



Clipboard04.png

(Note that the line on the C43 screen is a Windows artifact: the shift key picks up and shows the f- then the g- shift line in succession on the calculator simulator when I press Shift-Windows-S to capture the screen grab ! )
I cannot find a thread on the fact that the 7-button does not have shifted functions in the S-layout. What is the idea behind this?
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

RJvM wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:30 pm
RJvM wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:04 pm
My impression is that the WP43s design (layout) , as I understood it, seems to be getting more complicated, instead of staying as clean as possible. ...
I cannot find a thread on the fact that the 7-button does not have shifted functions in the S-layout. What is the idea behind this?
The WP43S layout was filled successively. We had always some free locations and conducted various polls to find valiant candidates for the last lots. Until today, no convincing suggestion has reached me with respect to the last three free locations on the bezel.

Feel free to propose; but check in advance: it must be reasonable, bring a true advantage compared to the present layout, and - if you mess everything up - don't release your proposal before you settled everything, no exception!

Good luck!
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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RJvM
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RJvM »

Thanks for the clarification on the three free spots on the WP43S keyboard (7 yellow + blue and 8 yellow).

It is difficult for me to propose functions for these, I don't have a complete overview of the function set as of yet.

Otoh I cannot imagine these spots to remain blank.

Wouldn't a solver, integrate or base menu or functions be reasonable, I cannot seem to find these on the keyboard.
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter »

You find the complete overview in the Reference Manual. Enjoy reading.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos »

RJvM wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:16 am
Thanks for the clarification on the three free spots on the WP43S keyboard (7 yellow + blue and 8 yellow).

It is difficult for me to propose functions for these, I don't have a complete overview of the function set as of yet.

Otoh I cannot imagine these spots to remain blank.

Wouldn't a solver, integrate or base menu or functions be reasonable, I cannot seem to find these on the keyboard.
43S has a 99% if not 100% policy of no repeat locations for commands and functions; and those you mention exist one menu away and both depend on the other labels in the same menus, which makes a stand-alone key not useful.

Furthermore, there is no BASE menu in 43S. It is a 42S legacy which is unique in C43, also made to bring the 16C legacy closer.

One soon realises that Walter’s challenge is hard to achieve, simply because a lot of thought already went into the layout as is 😉. Having said that, the challenge is real in the sense that they will consider your well considered suggestion. But make sure you consider the layout repercussions of changes.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
gmac42
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by gmac42 »

I, for one, don't really mind having one or two spots to assign stuff in USER mode without masking existing functions. But that's just a thought, not a strong opinion.
DM41X #542, DM42 #650, DM41L #801, HP 41CX, HP 41CV, HP 50G, HP11C, TI 89
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rudi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rudi »

What is the motivation for making the 43S?
And who are the target users?


Personally I will only buy a “scientific calculator” that can be used as a handy calculator on my desk at work. With this I mean a calculator with arithmetic functions easily available, left or right, really doesn’t matter (I had a HP41 for ages) and perhaps most important, the math functions and their inverse available on primary keys, logarithmic- and trigometric- functions. I really love all the solving, integrating and graphing functionality, but if the device can’t be used for fast basic scientific/engineering calculations, I know it will just be a dust collector on my desk.

Perhaps it could be an idea to make two versions with different key layout? I know that wouldn’t reduce the price, but perhaps it will increase the total sales of devices?

Please don’t take my comments as provocations, I am sincerely trying to help and tell my opinions.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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