43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:14 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
I'll be blunt. I don't get this two-shift operation. I don't see myself ever using this feature of the WP43C, so no problem for me, but it causes some problems (on the calculator, maybe not the emulator):
We have the HP42-like keyboard which gives us two things: Direct access to SIN, COS and TAN with shifted ASIN, ACOS and ATAN, as well as shifted functions >R and >P - a beautiful system. Love it. And it forces us to do double shifts, long presses and double clicks - no big problem, but:

I often find that we do not need TRIG functions every day, and find the ease of a single g key attractive - and by typing g[KEYS] FN4 FN3, I magically change the keyboard to have separate f and g keys, with a TRIG button which calls up Walter’s TRI menu.

As soon as I want normal operation again, I now press [USER] and my keyboard is back. For fast flipping BOTH WAYS, the U_SHFT pack also configures Σ+ to a unshifted USER key which is active in both keypads.

As you mention, I agree, it requires some imagination right now on the DM42 without any blue labels even.

It does need a bezel / key template for the blue keys and the colour bands. The question is whether the colour bands are enough to remind of the shift keys, whether it is effective or not.

We have a proper metallic template based on Inautilus's design coming soon. At least it was in planning before the worldwide lockdown ...
H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
It takes away assignable slots, two (or one, if we do as the WP43S does) labels from the [SIN] and [COS] keys + our yellow shift key and its two possible labels which is rendered obsolete.

That's 5 or 7 opportunities lost.
It is so. We do loose, but we loose temporarily, while in USER mode, as it is not permanent.
H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
Plus it invalidates parts of the user interface, even requiring extra printing on the faceplate, with adds to the entropy there.
No, the extra printing is limited to the gold/yellow/white bars under the 4 buttons only (the 5th line, white, on the bezel is for future flexibility). Otherwise no additional printing required.
H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
Plus it creates the need as you mention in your post to rearrange labels. In my mind, what we're changing was just about perfect.
That is true. This point is very valid, and the main reason that I want critical replies on whether the permanent blue label re-arrangement is as perfect as the previous “perfect” layout. More comments welcome.
H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
If we could change faceplates (and keys) as we can on the emulator, I'd get it, but now I feel that we're compromising our way away from perfection.
There will be faceplate(s). More on that later.
H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
The consequence is adding even more easter eggs, more things to remember, more to muscle memorize, more visual stuff to deal with on the faceplate. Three keys will have the wrong text printed on them, two of them the wrong labels above them, etc.
At the moment U_SHFT also adds the Σ+ change to USER. So that is another button that is different to its label.

Yes, changing of keys is confusing. Using the standard ASN/USER mode on the WP43S will also be confusing. I think it will be too much mental strain to have various packs to memorise. So, optional use of multi-function keys like this will always be a compromise. I do not expect people to use various packs. I suspect a single pack, this one for example, may be a popular choice, and the remaining keys will never be changed in USER mode.
H2X wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:30 am
I am of course biased by having no need for that separate g shift key at all, but any gain comes at a significantly higher cost - in my personal view.

Do we really want to go there?
This, is exactly what I want to discuss: What is the higher cost. Is there?

Assuming a user who does not need anything more than the vanilla 43C keyboard (which i.m.h.o. is great), would need to comment on especially whether the red lined mods in the image above come at a higher cost, and if so, what cost.

The ones I identified are:
  • Con: that the x-root-y function moves to g[SIN]. But do remember g[SIN] previously had >R on it, i.e. a
  • Pro: shifting the >R >P up, which as Dani also stated is an improvement.
  • Pro: shifting the LBL function down to be next to RTN, which also is an improvement as it releases prime top line real estate for a function that really belongs in the P.FN menu.
  • Pro: Shifting of the three type modifiers to be next to the fraction type modifier, which is also an improvement.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) running on DM42 sn. 03818, HP42S for complex math; 32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:42 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:14 pm
This, is exactly what I want to discuss: What is the higher cost. Is there?
I'd say different ways to shift itself is a cost, in that it will present different behaviours to execute the same basic operations to your muscle memory.

Imagine a car with a reassignable brake pedal... Stick with the norm, and you'll soon brake consistently and quickly without thinking. Allow for variation, and both your consistency and speed will suffer. Just postulating. (Try switching between cars with automatic and manual gearboxes, and observe your left foot...)

As said, this price won't be paid by me, so you and others who will need to make this call.

I do, however, find the horizontal lines (there are more than three of them) on the faceplate distracting, but this could perhaps be solved.

If it boils down to just the rearrangement of labels by itself, I need to have a new and fresh look at these. I'll get back to this.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:21 pm

This calculator UI is becoming more and more confusing IMHO. That may be ok as long as it's a one-person calculator (as this project was set up once). In the meantime, however, it seemed you want to reach more people. But I didn't follow all the many long posts, so I can relax and feel blessed I don't have to take that design. Good luck to you!
DM42 SN: 00041 Beta
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:42 pm

Walter wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:21 pm
This calculator UI is becoming more and more confusing IMHO. That may be ok as long as it's a one-person calculator (as this project was set up once). In the meantime, however, it seemed you want to reach more people. But I didn't follow all the many long posts, so I can relax and feel blessed I don't have to take that design. Good luck to you!

But this observation is now strongly dependent on the viewing direction. Every word.


There is no need to use the predefined KEYS. And it's true, you should make sure that the resulting additional markings on the keyboard plate are as discreet as possible. Otherwise the WP43C follows the philosophy of freedom of choice. Every functionality is accessible even without Easter egg.
DM42 SN:00032

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:01 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:42 pm
Walter wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:21 pm
This calculator UI is becoming more and more confusing IMHO. That may be ok as long as it's a one-person calculator (as this project was set up once). In the meantime, however, it seemed you want to reach more people. But I didn't follow all the many long posts, so I can relax and feel blessed I don't have to take that design. Good luck to you!
But this observation is now strongly dependent on the viewing direction. Every word.
For sure it is. I think I expressed that clear enough above already, but apparently not sufficient for everyone.
DM42 SN: 00041 Beta
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:10 pm

Walter wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:01 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:42 pm
Walter wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:21 pm
This calculator UI is becoming more and more confusing IMHO. That may be ok as long as it's a one-person calculator (as this project was set up once). In the meantime, however, it seemed you want to reach more people. But I didn't follow all the many long posts, so I can relax and feel blessed I don't have to take that design. Good luck to you!
But this observation is now strongly dependent on the viewing direction. Every word.
For sure it is. I think I expressed that clear enough above already, but apparently not sufficient for everyone.
Oh Walter, I'll certainly never bother you in your garden again, just leave me alone here.
DM42 SN:00032

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:11 pm

Walter wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:21 pm
... I can relax...
You can. Please do.
DM42 #40 running WP43C | DM41X #50
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.

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RAPo
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by RAPo » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:16 pm

so we can leave the paralysis by analysis stadium now.
The one who owns/publishes the new calc gets the final say.
And then we can all enjoy a new calc.
DM41X beta: SN00018.
DM41X: SN00496.
DM42 beta: SN00074.
DM42:SN06020.
DM10L: SN056/100.
DM11L: SN 02058.
DM15L: SN2074.
DM16L: SN2156.
DM15, DM16, DM41
and a whole bunch of the original HP's,

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:36 pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for the activity today on the re-arrangements. I want to give my findings:
  • Thank you RAPo for the push.
  • Walter, if you are confused, ask. I have never given a second rate answer on any question. It is simply your own 43S ASN/USER system p285/319 in the OM, "This mode gives you unexcelled freedom for creating your personal calculator layout and user interface", it is just more than a single button at a time using pre-packed KEYS. And it works brilliantly.
  • Dani, thank you for you comments.
  • Haakon, thank you for the constructive comments.
  • Inautilus, thank you for your brilliant response putting the options on the CAD layout.
  • Dani, you reminded me that the USER at f[SIN] can remain, but will be without label indication. The blue label g[SIN] remains normal.
  • Dani, I am not putting SNAP on f[g] or g[f]. I got no support for that here. (I could try put it on a morse code on f/g ;-))
Haakon your example of the brake pedal - I thought about it. But I want to allow possibilities and not restrict them. You are right though - but I am sure only experienced pilots will attempt key changes without bezel labels. The same warning from the 43S manual applies - he says clearly: "all reassignments you do are strictly at your own risk. In case of emergency, a hard reset will be the only escape – erasing all your precious programs and data". So I think the normal f/g shift / double shift will be the standard usage for most folks, and if they keep looking they will find many UI features as they go on.

Haakon, after your comment about the distraction, I tried to change the horizontal lines into coloured swabs, like small dominoes on the right side of the buttons. Inautilus jumped in and gave me photo-realistic updates of variations on the lines and swabs, and even tried dots. I could make a well informed decision and my preference remains horizontal lines. I’ll see to make the lines thinner if possible, but that can only be confirmed by the manufacturer how thin this would be. Inautilus, I do find that the white marking on FN1 is distracting, so we will leave out that mark and leave it plain.

Inautilus's top colour CAD designs also made me reflect on the layout. Strange how change of media in bright colours on paper changes perspective - and I realised that there is NO reason for GTO to sit on one of the best pieces of prime real estate on our footprint. I can’t believe that I did not see it earlier. So GTO goes to g[SIN], and x-root-y goes to the top row f[XEQ]!!

Dani, I am sure this will hurt your eyes less! And further to your comment today, I think in all respects this is a better layout now, without even taking into consideration U_SHFT. Dani, comes to think of it, way back middle of last year you asked for the programming keys to be taken away from XEQ, to release f and g XEQ for other functions. You would be happy to see the wheel turns ... slowly ... and eventually it happens.


So, the final arrangement allows for a must better spread of functions on the top row, below FN.
.
.
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Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) running on DM42 sn. 03818, HP42S for complex math; 32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

The new DM42 combined packaged firmware (DMCP 3.18 & DM42 3.15) is out.

See SwissMicros

It is good to update, so the latest DMCP automatically enters your DM42, for use with your WP43C.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
C43 (WP34C) running on DM42 sn. 03818, HP42S for complex math; 32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used HP67 & HP85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.

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