Heaven forbid! I say we leave them to you...
WP43 Alternative key layout --> C43
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
I believe in free will. Just can't help it.
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
My mistake, I naturally meant pressing twice briefly f/g-key to get the shift state g. But I think this should be clear now.
Exactly, for normal function calls you should not use triple-pressing.
C47(DM42) SN:00032 WP43 SN:00016
https://47calc.com
https://47calc.com
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
I have created a simple overlay for the DM42 flashed as WP43C, as I've done for the WP43S. Get this PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/167ZvHG ... sp=sharing and print it on normal paper. Then cut off the paper above and below the faceplate. Now wrap the remaining paper around your DM42, apply some scotch tape and your done. Far from being perfect but usable to find the right keys when exploring the WP43C on a DM42.
Günter
Günter
Günter
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184 -- DM41X SN:00013 and SN:00955
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184 -- DM41X SN:00013 and SN:00955
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
Thank you for the think tank. I like the good discussion on this topic.
My opinion is as follows:
1. I do not want the confirmation short presses as per my previous sketch anymore. I think that rprosperi is right that too many clicks is looking for trouble.
2. I also want to say, that this is an experimental platform, and I am willing to try different bits.
3. We don't have to decide on one solution only. Options that are not clashing, can co-exist. And a config flag is not a problem either.
I definitely think the f/g option can stay as base level control any way. There is no reason why the f/g cycle on the shift should change with the options discussed.
As a technical point, the way I want to hack it into the system is that whichever shift method will still activate the internal shiftF and shiftG flags, and then execute FN normally as if you pressed shift. That is what the shift cycle hack is doing already. The WP43S system will care for the correct dispatch. That way the dispatch function remains centralised and has common upgrades from Martin in future.
4. I like H2X's proposal:
5. I also like Dani's new proposal though. The similarity to the double shift to get g is appealing.
7. I also actually think Dani's (2) can at first co-exist with H2X (2). I could add a config flag if needed later. And Dani's (3) can also co-exist.
8. I also like the long press shift idea for HOME menu. That can also co-exist with the triple shift.
Jaco
My opinion is as follows:
1. I do not want the confirmation short presses as per my previous sketch anymore. I think that rprosperi is right that too many clicks is looking for trouble.
2. I also want to say, that this is an experimental platform, and I am willing to try different bits.
3. We don't have to decide on one solution only. Options that are not clashing, can co-exist. And a config flag is not a problem either.
I definitely think the f/g option can stay as base level control any way. There is no reason why the f/g cycle on the shift should change with the options discussed.
As a technical point, the way I want to hack it into the system is that whichever shift method will still activate the internal shiftF and shiftG flags, and then execute FN normally as if you pressed shift. That is what the shift cycle hack is doing already. The WP43S system will care for the correct dispatch. That way the dispatch function remains centralised and has common upgrades from Martin in future.
4. I like H2X's proposal:
- Press (display FN1) + release = execute FN1 (the normal, short press function).
- Press (display FN1) + hold (display f(FN1)) + release = execute f(FN).
- Press (display FN1) + hold (display changes to f(FN1)) + hold (display changes to g(FN1)) + release = execute g(FN).
- Press (display FN1) + hold (display changes to f(FN1)) + hold (display changes to g(FN1)) + hold (regardless of release) = NOP
5. I also like Dani's new proposal though. The similarity to the double shift to get g is appealing.
- Pressing the function key [FN] once, normally or briefly triggers the function [FN]
- One extended press of the function key [FN] triggers the function f[FN].
- Pressing the function key [FN] twice triggers the function g[FN].
7. I also actually think Dani's (2) can at first co-exist with H2X (2). I could add a config flag if needed later. And Dani's (3) can also co-exist.
8. I also like the long press shift idea for HOME menu. That can also co-exist with the triple shift.
Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
You're welcome, and thanks back to you for hosting it! I'm having fun!
If I understand it correctly, the last option of pressing the function key [FN] twice can be done from a clean start, right?Jaymos wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:13 pm5. I also like Dani's new proposal though. The similarity to the double shift to get g is appealing.
- Pressing the function key [FN] once, normally or briefly triggers the function [FN]
- One extended press of the function key [FN] triggers the function f[FN].
- Pressing the function key [FN] twice triggers the function g[FN].
I believe in free will. Just can't help it.
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
That is how I understand it, i.e. that all items listed start from scratch.H2X wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:49 pmYou're welcome, and thanks back to you for hosting it! I'm having fun!
If I understand it correctly, the last option of pressing the function key [FN] twice can be done from a clean start, right?Jaymos wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:13 pm5. I also like Dani's new proposal though. The similarity to the double shift to get g is appealing.
- Pressing the function key [FN] once, normally or briefly triggers the function [FN]
- One extended press of the function key [FN] triggers the function f[FN].
- Pressing the function key [FN] twice triggers the function g[FN].
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
That sounds to me like a double press, where there is some maximum key up time between the two presses to identify them as double instead of two separate, single presses invoking FN two times in a row.
It might work as a charm, but might take some experimenting to find the right interval. I imagine that it might also be difficult to recover from an intended double press registering as separate single presses - or vice versa, if that should happen.
I do like Dani's suggestion of a NOP possibility for all keys. Have you given that some thought yet?
I believe in free will. Just can't help it.
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
That is exactly the issue. To make sure the system is practical. With the multiple taps to set f, g, and HOME, and cycle back, it makes no difference to the stack if you do occasionally get the wrong shift. With FN keys it is different as you say.H2X wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:38 pmThat sounds to me like a double press, where there is some maximum key up time between the two presses to identify them as double instead of two separate, single presses invoking FN two times in a row.
It might work as a charm, but might take some experimenting to find the right interval. I imagine that it might also be difficult to recover from an intended double press registering as separate single presses - or vice versa, if that should happen.
Personally, I will set up the H2X long press system first, as it is slightly easier to implement any way (it is a modification of the NOP system) and then I'll see about the double taps.
From my experience with setting up many timing issues on micro-controllers and recently the f/g shift cycle that you know of, programming timing issues to comply with human touch is often more involved than the basic timing diagram and requires experimental tuning of the boundary windows. I am pretty happy with the current version of the f/g cycle and the double tap CLR for DROP as it is now, and it is seldom that I miss a triple press for Home. But it does happen and that brings me to the point that if one does miss a triple press occasionally, the long press shift to call HOME, seems attractive.
I do not consider it as it will require a rewrite of some core WP43S parts and I do not want to deviate from the 43S structure too far on too many issues. I like to stay on the same maintenance path as the main project, where possible.
Last edited by Jaymos on Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Elec Eng, South Africa
https://47calc.com C47 (s/n 03818 & 06199), WP43 (0015). In box: HP42S, HP32Sii, WP34S&C, HP28C, HP35s, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; ex: FX702P, 11C, HP67 & HP85; iOS: 42s Byron, Free42+, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
This discussion/meandering think-tank is indeed both interesting and productive.
I like both sets of ideas, obviously for differing reasons, but I'd caution against mixing them, as in my experience multiple simultaneous 'non-standard' sets of UI controls tends to confuse nearly all users. So I'd implement the 'long-hold' style, and in a parallel build the 'multi-click' style, and test drive both to see which feels better. But both at once will likely be confusing, to say nothing of difficult to code/test.
I like both sets of ideas, obviously for differing reasons, but I'd caution against mixing them, as in my experience multiple simultaneous 'non-standard' sets of UI controls tends to confuse nearly all users. So I'd implement the 'long-hold' style, and in a parallel build the 'multi-click' style, and test drive both to see which feels better. But both at once will likely be confusing, to say nothing of difficult to code/test.
--bob p
DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
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- Posts: 564
- Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:38 pm
Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C
Has anyone mentioned pressing and holding a key for its second function? I use this ask the time on RealCalc (RPN mode, naturally) and I find it a real time saver. It'd love a hardware RPN calculator that does the same thing.