43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:05 am

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:46 am
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:45 am
Walter wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:01 am
BTW, a comprehensive text about your user interface would ease the path for potential users of your WP34C. Easier than reading some 580 posts at least. Just my personal opinion though.
There is a document of differences linked on p1 of this thread that I will update. The last update was in the beginning of September and a lot was added since. It is on the todo list to update.
Apparently not. You (pl.) have lots of ideas but I miss a comprehensive document covering your (pl.) overall concept. And I think I am not the only person. Please take your (pl.) time and explain it to us. I am confident this investment will pay.

(Did I mention that I love the English language for its ambiguity?)
The result of all the efforts is that I now have a 43C in a DM42 on my desk, which I actually use on a daily basis as a working engineer. And funnily this is because I read one of your old comments (maybe on the other list, maybe on the 34S, I can't remember), where you told someone asking for some feature to get the code and do it. So I thought, it can't be that difficult ...

We have no Walter preparing almost perfect Lastenheft style documents and we have no Martin producing reams of almost perfect code. And when he does issue those reams (as he is almost ready to do again), all our time is used to make his new code work with our changed interface without breaking too many things. Not a trivial task to fit into real life, but very rewarding though.

The documentation you refer to is direly needed. I am saying there is no realistic way that me or Dani can even start a comprehensive document.

There is a handful of faithfuls reading and infrequently commenting on this list, and our dev group comprises 2 users who dream up what is needed and code it (well, actually, the one hacks and the other one codes), so I guess that this is an open request for someone to jump in and start a document or manual or specification or that German word I like, Lastenheft.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:36 am

Just one little comment: When we started the WP34S project in 2008 we were just 2 people as well. One person (P) created and wrote SW/FW, the other one (W) documented and designed the UI. We stayed two until 2011 when Marcus joined us. In our experience, some conceptual work pays.

Feel free to do it differently. You might end up with cracks and wrinkles you have to iron out one by one. Good luck.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:41 am

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:36 am
Just one little comment: When we started the WP34S project in 2008 we were just 2 people as well. One person (P) created and wrote SW/FW, the other one (W) documented and designed the UI. We stayed two until 2011 when Marcus joined us. In our experience, some conceptual work pays.

Feel free to do it differently. You might end up with cracks and wrinkles you have to iron out one by one. Good luck.
Thank you. Point taken.
J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:30 am

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:46 am
... I miss a comprehensive document covering your (pl.) overall concept. And I think I am not the only person. Please take your (pl.) time and explain it to us. I am confident this investment will pay.

(Did I mention that I love the English language for its ambiguity?)
If I get involved in the discussion here: The WP43C lives from fast prototyping. In the case of Jaco very fast prototyping and in my case less fast prototyping. Jaco regularly updates the document that shows the differences to the WP43S concept. Of course it is possible that the document is not always up to date. This is partly due to prototyping. On the other hand, this is also due to the fact that interim solutions are being implemented to improve the current user-friendliness, although it is well known that this interim solution will be removed again.

Apart from that there are now solutions in WP43C, which I would like to see in WP43S as well. The WP43C handles more status of the calculator than the WP43S. But it doesn't make sense to include these additional states in the status bar. Therefore alternative concepts were developed, which have been revised again.

The missing RadioButton in the WP43S disturbed me immediately. Thanks to the overall concept they are not needed. But from the DM42 point of view I am too used to have RadioButton to want to do without it. And I think the future users of the WP43S wouldn't say no if they found RadioButton. You can copy them or I'll install them for you (if I have the necessary rights). Or you can leave them out.
DM42 SN:00032

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:36 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:30 am
The missing RadioButton in the WP43S disturbed me immediately. Thanks to the overall concept they are not needed. But from the DM42 point of view I am too used to have RadioButton to want to do without it. And I think the future users of the WP43S wouldn't say no if they found RadioButton. You can copy them or I'll install them for you (if I have the necessary rights). Or you can leave them out.
If I got it right, you introduced some characters recently. One of them you call RadioButton (another point I love in this language are its strange ways of spelling). What do you mean by that and what's its function/purpose? Just to ensure I didn't miss anything... thanks in advance for enlightening me.
Last edited by Walter on Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

rprosperi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:54 pm

I agree the RadioButton and CheckBoxes are very useful enhancements of the UI and the 43S team should consider adopting them. Their use and behavior are universally understood and they add can add clarity when selecting among the many, many sets of 43S option settings, as is well-illustrated in the display mode example Jaco posted. Nice work, I hope it will be adopted.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:09 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:36 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:30 am
The missing RadioButton in the WP43S disturbed me immediately. Thanks to the overall concept they are not needed. But from the DM42 point of view I am too used to have RadioButton to want to do without it. And I think the future users of the WP43S wouldn't say no if they found RadioButton. You can copy them or I'll install them for you (if I have the necessary rights). Or you can leave them out.
If I got it right, you introduced some characters recently. One of them you call RadioButton (another point I love in this language are its strange ways of spelling). What do you mean by that and what's its function/purpose? Just to ensure I didn't miss anything... thanks in advance for enlightening me.
The RadioButton per se on the 43C is not a character. It is implemented as a drawn graphic the same way the actual 18 softmenu boxes are drawn.

The RadioButton concept is analogous to the old User Interface concept where mutually exclusive options are selected by a round push button, when pressed, it latches, and simultaneously de-latches any other selected option. Typically this was used for FM, MW, SW1, SW2, kind of selections on a radio.

The function is simply to indicate options not selected by a circle, and the option selected by the circle and a dot.

Here an example of the unmodified 3rd screen of your STAT menu, where it indicates the selected option together with the possible options.
Clipboard12.png
Clipboard12.png (3.17 KiB) Viewed 260 times
The options in this screen which do not have RadioButtons are not yet in the implemented items list, and will get buttons when they do arrive.
Last edited by Jaymos on Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 215
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:11 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:36 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:30 am
The missing RadioButton in the WP43S disturbed me immediately. Thanks to the overall concept they are not needed. But from the DM42 point of view I am too used to have RadioButton to want to do without it. And I think the future users of the WP43S wouldn't say no if they found RadioButton. You can copy them or I'll install them for you (if I have the necessary rights). Or you can leave them out.
If I got it right, you introduced some characters recently. One of them you call RadioButton (another point I love in this language are its strange ways of spelling). What do you mean by that and what's its function/purpose? Just to ensure I didn't miss anything... thanks in advance for enlightening me.
I have no idea if that's how RadioButton's written. This is one reason why I don't write manuals, especially in English. But now to the way it works, how I suppose, it is used.

Take the DM42, open the MODES menu. Here you see two squares in the softmenu. Either DEG, RAD or GRAD is marked with the first square. The second square marks either RECT or POLAR. Let's assume that DEG is marked, then the calculator is in angle mode DEG. If you now press RAD, the calculator is in angle mode RAD, the marking, in this case the small rectangle, moves from DEG to RAD. This functionality (jumping the mark to the last pressed key) I assume, is called RadioButton (Röhrenradio Florida (1954) Blaupunkt als Beispiel).

In general, the status of the WP43S is shown very well in the status bar. For SSIZE4 or SSIZE8 I can't find a symbol in the status bar. In the menu INFO I can query the value, but change the stack. Since the last version of the WP43C you can see this state directly in the MODE menu thanks to the RadioButton.
DM42 SN:00032

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:14 pm

And what's the difference between your RadioButton and your CheckBox?
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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:24 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:14 pm
And what's the difference between your RadioButton and your CheckBox?
CheckBox has two states, pressed or not pressed, i.e. switched on or off. They represent a bool value. At the moment I don't see any need for CheckBox with WP43S. But Jaco has currently introduced eight bool values for the WP43C. So if you press a CheckBox this only affects this "button", the state is inverted.


EDIT: LZON and LZOFF is a candidate, which could be solved as CheckBox with only one "button".
(EDIT 2: Two heads, one opinion (LZO..)...)
Last edited by Dani R. on Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DM42 SN:00032

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