43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm

Guenter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:03 pm
When entering the "STAT" menu the ∑+ is on the unshifted plane while ∑- is on the (f)shifted plane. As the ∑+ is already directly available on the keyboard I think the ∑- should be on the unshifted plane for convenience and the ∑+ could go to the (f)shifted plane.

Günter
I agree and I have requested exactly this and some other things on the other group for Walter to consider a few weeks ago. I have not had a response.

I try to have such things which are in both 43s/c interest done in the main project, as I hook onto that. When he declines, then I would do it in 43C, like eRPN, Sigfig, operators right, the CPX menu order, and more.

Would you reply to my post on “43 news”? That may strengthen the case.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Guenter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Guenter » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:06 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm
Guenter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:03 pm
When entering the "STAT" menu the ∑+ is on the unshifted plane while ∑- is on the (f)shifted plane. As the ∑+ is already directly available on the keyboard I think the ∑- should be on the unshifted plane for convenience and the ∑+ could go to the (f)shifted plane.

Günter
I agree and I have requested exactly this and some other things on the other group for Walter to consider a few weeks ago. I have not had a response.

I try to have such things which are in both 43s/c interest done in the main project, as I hook onto that. When he declines, then I would do it in 43C, like eRPN, Sigfig, operators right, the CPX menu order, and more.

Would you reply to my post on “43 news”? That may strengthen the case.

J
When I see it correctly, the ∑+ ist not on the keyboard of the WP43S. Only accessible via the menu STAT. Then it's quite understandable that Walter doesn't want to change that. Before I'd approach Walter on that I'd like to read your proposal on that, but can't find it. Do you have any Idea around what date you made it?

Günter
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:18 pm

Guenter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:06 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm
Guenter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:03 pm
When entering the "STAT" menu the ∑+ is on the unshifted plane while ∑- is on the (f)shifted plane. As the ∑+ is already directly available on the keyboard I think the ∑- should be on the unshifted plane for convenience and the ∑+ could go to the (f)shifted plane.

Günter
I agree and I have requested exactly this and some other things on the other group for Walter to consider a few weeks ago. I have not had a response.

I try to have such things which are in both 43s/c interest done in the main project, as I hook onto that. When he declines, then I would do it in 43C, like eRPN, Sigfig, operators right, the CPX menu order, and more.

Would you reply to my post on “43 news”? That may strengthen the case.

J
When I see it correctly, the ∑+ ist not on the keyboard of the WP43S. Only accessible via the menu STAT. Then it's quite understandable that Walter doesn't want to change that. Before I'd approach Walter on that I'd like to read your proposal on that, but can't find it. Do you have any Idea around what date you made it?

Günter
1 Sep 2019, page 43.

"Change Request
Request2: STAT menu: it makes more sense to have both E+ and E- on a primary FN1 and FN2. If one would be inclined to use either, it would be better to have it more readily available. A solution would be to put E+ and E- next to one another on primary FN keys."
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Guenter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Guenter » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:53 pm

Done,

Günter
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:15 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm
Guenter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:03 pm
When entering the "STAT" menu the ∑+ is on the unshifted plane while ∑- is on the (f)shifted plane. As the ∑+ is already directly available on the keyboard I think the ∑- should be on the unshifted plane for convenience and the ∑+ could go to the (f)shifted plane.

Günter
I agree and I have requested exactly this and some other things on the other group for Walter to consider a few weeks ago. I have not had a response.

I try to have such things which are in both 43s/c interest done in the main project, as I hook onto that. When he declines, then I would do it in 43C, like eRPN, Sigfig, operators right, the CPX menu order, and more.

Would you reply to my post on “43 news”? That may strengthen the case.

J
Hi Guenther

I’ll change the E- [five keypresses more to use ‘Σ’ on the phone] position in the menu, it’s been bugging me for a while. It is item 702 of my last status report, under ‘waiting’, moved to ‘todo’.

I am earmarking E+, or rather I foresee, or maybe even advocate that E+ would be used in USER for that primary custom key that is missing. That is, you assign CC to E+ if you want, or make that the MyMenu button, or the HOME button or in fact any of your favourite functions hidden in a menu somewhere. I’ll probably put my ELEC menu on there. Point is that I can see that the E+ key is in such a good position to be the custom button that we all need - and E+ and E- for STAT, will be quite sufficiently accessible where they are in the softmenu.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:44 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:15 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm
Guenter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:03 pm
When entering the "STAT" menu the ∑+ is on the unshifted plane while ∑- is on the (f)shifted plane. As the ∑+ is already directly available on the keyboard I think the ∑- should be on the unshifted plane for convenience and the ∑+ could go to the (f)shifted plane.

Günter
I agree and I have requested exactly this and some other things on the other group for Walter to consider a few weeks ago. I have not had a response.

I try to have such things which are in both 43s/c interest done in the main project, as I hook onto that. When he declines, then I would do it in 43C, like eRPN, Sigfig, operators right, the CPX menu order, and more.

Would you reply to my post on “43 news”? That may strengthen the case.

J
Hi Guenther

I’ll change the E- [five keypresses more to use ‘Σ’ on the phone] position in the menu, it’s been bugging me for a while. It is item 702 of my last status report, under ‘waiting’, moved to ‘todo’.

I am earmarking E+, or rather I foresee, or maybe even advocate that E+ would be used in USER for that primary custom key that is missing. That is, you assign CC to E+ if you want, or make that the MyMenu button, or the HOME button or in fact any of your favourite functions hidden in a menu somewhere. I’ll probably put my ELEC menu on there. Point is that I can see that the E+ key is in such a good position to be the custom button that we all need - and E+ and E- for STAT, will be quite sufficiently accessible where they are in the softmenu.

J
Question for you stat guys:

I get that E- is not equivalent to E+ the same negative value, as we should not only expect to reduce the sum but also decrement the count of elements.

In this respect it sort of reminds of removing one element from a stack. However, I have not seen a calculator complaining about removing a value which was never entered with E+ so this entire thing seems a bit simplistic.

Not saying that it isn't still useful, but do you agree with this observation?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:07 pm

H2X wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:44 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:15 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm


I agree and I have requested exactly this and some other things on the other group for Walter to consider a few weeks ago. I have not had a response.

I try to have such things which are in both 43s/c interest done in the main project, as I hook onto that. When he declines, then I would do it in 43C, like eRPN, Sigfig, operators right, the CPX menu order, and more.

Would you reply to my post on “43 news”? That may strengthen the case.

J
Hi Guenther

I’ll change the E- [five keypresses more to use ‘Σ’ on the phone] position in the menu, it’s been bugging me for a while. It is item 702 of my last status report, under ‘waiting’, moved to ‘todo’.

I am earmarking E+, or rather I foresee, or maybe even advocate that E+ would be used in USER for that primary custom key that is missing. That is, you assign CC to E+ if you want, or make that the MyMenu button, or the HOME button or in fact any of your favourite functions hidden in a menu somewhere. I’ll probably put my ELEC menu on there. Point is that I can see that the E+ key is in such a good position to be the custom button that we all need - and E+ and E- for STAT, will be quite sufficiently accessible where they are in the softmenu.

J
Question for you stat guys:

I get that E- is not equivalent to E- a negative value, as we should not only expect to reduce the sum but also decrement the count of elements.

In this respect it sort of reminds of removing one element from a stack. However, I have not seen a calculator complaining about removing a value which was never entered with E+ so this entire thing seems a bit simplistic.

Not saying that it isn't still useful, but do you agree with this observation?
In the 42 years I have been handling HP’s capable of E+, I have never really used E+, so I can not say from experience! But I can say that with the number if functions and curves, I’ll very likely use this one.

The 43 must remember the points not only the totals, see p249 of the ReM (a scatterplot is on the cards), so the question of E- for non-entered points is valid. But I’ll have to read up on that.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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ijabbott
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by ijabbott » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:51 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:07 pm
H2X wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:44 pm
Question for you stat guys:

I get that E- is not equivalent to E- a negative value, as we should not only expect to reduce the sum but also decrement the count of elements.

In this respect it sort of reminds of removing one element from a stack. However, I have not seen a calculator complaining about removing a value which was never entered with E+ so this entire thing seems a bit simplistic.

Not saying that it isn't still useful, but do you agree with this observation?
In the 42 years I have been handling HP’s capable of E+, I have never really used E+, so I can not say from experience! But I can say that with the number if functions and curves, I’ll very likely use this one.

The 43 must remember the points not only the totals, see p249 of the ReM (a scatterplot is on the cards), so the question of E- for non-entered points is valid. But I’ll have to read up on that.
As a general rule (AFAICT), calculators that store the data points don't have 𝚺+ and 𝚺- buttons; they have list editing functions. The calculators that have 𝚺+ and 𝚺- buttons don't store the data points; they only store summation data.

I guess if 𝚺- is used to delete previously entered data points which it stores, it would need to search for the data point and produce an error if it doesn't exist.

If data points are not stored, I guess 𝚺- would only produce an error if n is zero or if the sum of squares would go negative (or perhaps the sum of squares going negative wouldn't be caught until you try and calculate the SD).

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:52 pm

ijabbott wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:51 pm
As a general rule (AFAICT), calculators that store the data points don't have 𝚺+ and 𝚺- buttons; they have list editing functions. The calculators that have 𝚺+ and 𝚺- buttons don't store the data points; they only store summation data.

I guess if 𝚺- is used to delete previously entered data points which it stores, it would need to search for the data point and produce an error if it doesn't exist.

If data points are not stored, I guess 𝚺- would only produce an error if n is zero or if the sum of squares would go negative (or perhaps the sum of squares going negative wouldn't be caught until you try and calculate the SD).
True, in principle. You can also store data points in matrices.

AFAIK, 𝚺- produces no error at all. Statistical functions like s or L.R. throw an error if n is too low.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:52 pm

ijabbott wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:51 pm
As a general rule (AFAICT), calculators that store the data points don't have 𝚺+ and 𝚺- buttons; they have list editing functions. The calculators that have 𝚺+ and 𝚺- buttons don't store the data points; they only store summation data.

I guess if 𝚺- is used to delete previously entered data points which it stores, it would need to search for the data point and produce an error if it doesn't exist.

If data points are not stored, I guess 𝚺- would only produce an error if n is zero or if the sum of squares would go negative (or perhaps the sum of squares going negative wouldn't be caught until you try and calculate the SD).
Precisely!

E+ seems trivial enough to me as a way to enter data points, but I cannot say the same about E- as a way to remove them.

I won't bother discussing this with the core team, but does this make the case for the E- key somewhat weaker?

Maybe an undo function might make as much sense as a corrective operation as a E- key? Assuming you realise that you made a mistake right away, it would be easier to press one key to undo, than to repeat the value and then press E-.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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