43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 pm

I need input on the HOME concept possible changes:

Some of you gave very good ergonomical type comments when we changed the keyboard around. I need some of that now...

1.
I am considering to make HOME menu a semi permanent feature on screen, i.e. all new menus will pop up on top of the HOME menu, but the last EXIT will not return to a blank screen, but go back to the base menu.

-First Q: Does the idea of a fixed HOME menu (in addition to the g[7] key and 3 x shift) appeal? Will it be better? Is there an improvement to this idea?



2.
I am considering to add a setting in MODE, so you can choose whether you want the base menu to be the HOME menu or to be the custom/user MYMENU.

-Second Q: Does the idea of changing the base menu appeal?



3.
Currently, the alpha input mode defaults to custom/user MyALPHA menu when you enter the input mode.
Currently alpha mode has a "HOME" button called ALPHA on g[0] and on 3 x shift.

I can add a MODE setting to change the default alpha mode menu to ALPHA-HOME instead of MyALPHA.

-Third Q: Does this appeal? Comments or better ideas please.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
H2X
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:53 am

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 pm
-First Q: Does the idea of a fixed HOME menu (in addition to the g[7] key and 3 x shift) appeal? Will it be better? Is there an improvement to this idea?
A1: Honestly, it didn't immediately sound appealing, but it might grow on me. :-)

I would like to see some examples, and learn a bit more about the motivation. An option to switch it off wouldn't hurt either, if you could easily create that. That would give us the possibility to give you feedback based on actual experience, and in the end, users can opt in or out as they wish.
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 pm
-Second Q: Does the idea of changing the base menu appeal?
A2: Yes!
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 pm
3. I can add a MODE setting to change the default alpha mode menu to ALPHA-HOME instead of MyALPHA.

-Third Q: Does this appeal? Comments or better ideas please.
A3: Yes!
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

Dani R.
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:55 pm

Let me answer your questions a little differently. It is the intention of WP43S to display the two user menus MyMenu and Myα as default, if firstly something is assigned and secondly no other menu is called. In WP43S/C you can see this e.g. by the fact that in normal mode no menu is visible if no other menu is called and in alpha mode a menu with the assignment 'ä, 'ö', 'ü' etc. is simulated.

Now to your questions. It is always good to have freedom of choice. I got used to the "blank screen". I can imagine that in the emulator in normal mode I will like to have "blank screen", but on the DM42-WP43C e.g. MyMenu, when all EXIT are finished.

1. / 2. I would like to be able to choose between "blank screen", MyMenu and HOME for the base menu.

In alpha mode I prefer your ALPHA-HOME, no matter if emulator or DM42-WP43C.
(This brings me to the next point. In ALPHA-HOME you can call Myα from 'F1'. I don't see where you can call MyMenu in normal mode in HOME. Since you hardly need HOME in alpha mode, you can remove Myα from HOME.)

3. I would like to be able to choose between "blank screen", Myα and ALPHA-HOME for the base menu in alpha mode.

"blank screen" could also be something like DM42.
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 pm
...HOME menu (in addition to the g[7] key and 3 x shift...

..."HOME" button called ALPHA on g[0] and on 3 x shift...
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:24 pm

Thanks for the comments guys.

The long and the short is yes, you want all in settable options .... I could have guessed ;-) I am putting those options in there, to help us decide what we want. It needs a bit more time though.

Interesting, Guenter actually got the WP43C as a talk topic on the HHC. See the schedule: https://hhuc.us/2019/schedule.htm. Tell us what happened yesterday!

I also started to put in some constants, i.e. operator a (120 degree unity vector) and j (90 degree unity vector) (as used by EE's) when shifting vectors through 120 degrees and 90 degrees - useful to have the standard vector on f[F1]. I'm fiddling around with some vector formulas I often need - maybe it will end as EE package doing sequence components, delta/wye conversions, etc - just exploring options. Maybe I just ditch it.

I integrated this weekend's significant WP43S upgrades into the WP43C - but I am not ready yet to publish the emulators and firmware. Will do in a few days.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
Guenter
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 4:26 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Guenter » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:21 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:24 pm

Interesting, Guenter actually got the WP43C as a talk topic on the HHC. See the schedule: https://hhuc.us/2019/schedule.htm. Tell us what happened yesterday!
We were a little bit ahead of time, therefor I quickly hacked some words together to give an overview on the fly. Although I sometimes mixed the WP43C and the WP34S ;) it finally became clear, what I was talking about. A number of people approached me afterwards for some more in depth explanations.

Günter, from the HHC2019
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184

User avatar
inautilus
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, CANADA

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:55 pm

DM42 issues ... still persist. I've been holding back on purchasing at least 2 DM42s (one for me, and one for my enthusiastic, tech minded 16 year old) until I was confident that those pesky keyboard issues had finally been resolved. So, you can imagine how deflated I felt when I read the following post:
jaykstone wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:14 pm
Has anyone tried replacing the dome switches?
I purchased a DM42 and received it last weekend. I immediately loved everything about it except the keys. Keys were hard to press, and many of them could click without registering unless i pressed harder after the click. I decided I was intent on keeping this calculator and really did not want to send it back.
First I tried the gentile key bending. this did reduce the required force, but keys could still click and not register. Next I put a dab of UV curable plastic on center of each dome. this helped on some keys, but was too thick on others. I gently ground down the added plastic until all keys worked. This was better than when I started, but I would still miss some keystrokes where a click was felt but the press did not register.
I took the DM42 to work for a day and decided the keyboard was just causing too many mistakes.
I peeled back the sheet of domes, and everything looked perfectly clean. I cleaned with Isopropyl alcohol anyway, and still no change.

Finally I decided to remove the plastic I had added on and replace the snap domes. first I peeled off the plastic bits I had added with tweezers. The only domes I had on hand was some 6mm domes I was able to salvage from some scrap keypads at work, but it looked like they might work even though they are smaller. I carefully removed half of the original 8mm domes (from top half of keyboard)and replaced them with the domes I had on hand, carefully centering each one and sticking it on the plastic sheet. Upon re-assembly, all of the keys with the new domes worked perfectly. I could not get a key to click without registering. I repeated this on the remaining keys with the same result. Now every key works great.

Has anyone else tried this? I suspect there may be other domes (from Snaptron etc) to consider from a feel perspective, but based on my results it seems like replacing the domes could be promising. Any thoughts?

Jay
Is this ever going to be resolved ...?

PS ... makes one wonder how many others out there (world-wide) are also reluctantly sitting on their money, really wanting to purchase, but ...
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

User avatar
H2X
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:53 pm

inautilus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:55 pm
DM42 issues ... still persist. I've been holding back on purchasing at least 2 DM42s (one for me, and one for my enthusiastic, tech minded 16 year old) until I was confident that those pesky keyboard issues had finally been resolved. So, you can imagine how deflated I felt when I read the following post:

[...]

Is this ever going to be resolved ...?

PS ... makes one wonder how many others out there (world-wide) are also reluctantly sitting on their money, really wanting to purchase, but ...
Good question. I had the same problem with my beta model, and fixed it using replacement domes + carefully bending the keys. Now I am super happy with the feel.

The solution to the problem is certainly within reach, and there is something un-Swiss about not applying it...
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:00 pm

HP42S COMPLEX compatibility


I am considering to add a config flag to optionally force COMPLEX compatibility for 42S. Is this complex entry a problem for anyone else?

The issue is that on 43S, you either do

1 CC 2 EXIT (or 1 CC 2 ENTER) or
1 ENTER 2 EXIT CC

On 42S you do:
1 ENTER 2 CC or
1 ENTER 2 EXIT CC

Both are similar, but sufficiently different to cause finger trouble. I very frequently on the 43C do:

1 ENTER 2 COMPLEX which would have been good on the 42S but which enters 1 and starts a new complex number starting with 2. I don't like that and I can't seem to shake the habit.

I think a wrapper function with optional flag to force EXIT upon calling COMPLEX will be a simple fix.

When COMPLEX (actually CC) is called to terminate entry first (EXIT), will mean that the sequence 1 ENTER 2 CC will always result in the equivalent of 1 ENTER 2 EXIT CC. This concept is it will then always do 42S style complex input. I will check the code maybe it is more complicated.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
ijabbott
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:34 pm
Location: GB-MAN

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by ijabbott » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:44 am

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:00 pm
HP42S COMPLEX compatibility


I am considering to add a config flag to optionally force COMPLEX compatibility for 42S. Is this complex entry a problem for anyone else?

The issue is that on 43S, you either do

1 CC 2 EXIT (or 1 CC 2 ENTER) or
1 ENTER 2 EXIT CC

On 42S you do:
1 ENTER 2 CC or
1 ENTER 2 EXIT CC

Both are similar, but sufficiently different to cause finger trouble. I very frequently on the 43C do:

1 ENTER 2 COMPLEX which would have been good on the 42S but which enters 1 and starts a new complex number starting with 2. I don't like that and I can't seem to shake the habit.

I think a wrapper function with optional flag to force EXIT upon calling COMPLEX will be a simple fix.

When COMPLEX (actually CC) is called to terminate entry first (EXIT), will mean that the sequence 1 ENTER 2 CC will always result in the equivalent of 1 ENTER 2 EXIT CC. This concept is it will then always do 42S style complex input. I will check the code maybe it is more complicated.
I think the main reason for having the 43S style "1 [CC] 2 [op]" (where "[op]" is any operation that terminates number entry) is that it only loses the original T register contents, compared to "1 [ENTER] 2 [EXIT] [CC]" which loses the original T and Z register contents (assuming a 4-level stack).

My preference would be to have both [CC] and [COMPLEX] as separate entities (although I'm not fussy about the names). [CC] would be just a number key (separating the real and imaginary parts of number entry), whereas [COMPLEX] would be an operation like on the 42S. So you could do:

1 [ENTER] 2 [COMPLEX] (42S style), or
1 [CC] 2 [op] (43S style).

This leads to the following unusual sequences:

1 [CC] [op] (enters a complex number 1.+i*0.)
[E] [CC] [op] (enters a complex number 1.+i*0.)
[CC] 1 [op] (enters a complex number 0.+i*1.)
[CC] [E] [op] (enters a complex number 0.+i*1.)
[E] [CC] [E] [op] (enters a complex number 1.+i*1.)
[CC] [op] (enters a complex number 0.+i*0.)
1 [CC] 2 [COMPLEX] (enters a complex number 1.+i*2. and then splits it into two reals Y=1., X=2.)
[CC] [COMPLEX] (enters a complex number 0.+i*0. and then splits it into two reals Y=0., X=0.)

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:24 am

In summary, as I understand, you propose one step further, i.e. to rather optionally prevent CC from having 42S compatibility, and also to introduce a new command COMPLEX, which only has 42S compatibility.

I am liking your idea of a separate COMPLEX function, for the reason that I try keep the existing commands (CC) standard for the purposes of future programming complications.

I can do this without flags by simply adding 2 wrappers to CC, one called COMPLEX for strict 42S compatibility and another called say CC1. We would use USER to replace the yellow COMPLEX with either CC or CC1. And if you need both, replace top left Σ+ with CC1.

Just to be clear: currently, CC operation already includes 42S style, i.e. when typing CC with no preceding number, it already does 42S style on X and Y, and terminates. I would need to block that.

Currently the E functionality does not work as you show and I don’t intend to change it. Only after starting numerical input mode (NIM) with a number (not E), CC changes input to imag.

All your examples starting with CC does currently not work due to the above. This would need the CC1 mod to not take X and Y and terminate.

Currently:

1 [CC] [op] (enters a complex number 1.+i*0.) renders 1+i*1

[E] [CC] [op] (enters a complex number 1.+i*0.) Does not terminate entry once E is opened. Expecting exponent entry.

[CC] 1 [op] (enters a complex number 0.+i*1.) Not. Takes X Y and terminates after CC.

[CC] [E] [op] (enters a complex number 0.+i*1.) Not. Takes X Y and terminates after CC.

[E] [CC] [E] [op] (enters a complex number 1.+i*1.) Not. Does not work. Does not proceed with CC once E is opened.

[CC] [op] (enters a complex number 0.+i*0.) Not. CC works on x and y 42S style.

1 [CC] 2 [COMPLEX] (enters a complex number 1.+i*2. and then splits it into two reals Y=1., X=2.) Would work once new COMPLEX is done.

[CC] [COMPLEX] (enters a complex number 0.+i*0. and then splits it into two reals Y=0., X=0.) Not. CC works on x and y 42S style.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Post Reply