43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Guenter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Guenter » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:44 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:28 pm
Guenter wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:03 pm
As I'm preparing my trip to the HHC at Reno now, I intend to take the "WP43S" with me for a demonstration. Unfortunately time was to short to prepare a useful presentation. But I guess, next year will be a good opportunity still.
Enjoy Reno, I am sure the souped up DM42 (WP43C) will draw attention as it really looks like a DM42 until you switch it on ;-)

... the L2 picture is meant to look like the DM42 without the blue texts. For demonstration of the WP43C with layout L2, it probably is good to have a print (or iPad) with the full L2 including blue labels. I will post that in a few minutes.
As promised, L2 with blue labels. They were taken away a few weeks ago, as it was confusing that the DM42 strict version would have blue labels that you can't see. It remains handy to have a reference of what is where for the double tap [g] shift.
Thanks Jaco, that picture helps a lot for an overview of what can be expected.

Günter
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184

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Over_score
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Over_score » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:21 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:32 pm
Line 1038, 1265, 1310, 1965 typo: "&y.real" instead of "&y.imag".
I should have tested it to see it for myself...
DM42 (SN 00284 & 03835), DM15L, HP41CV, HP42S, HP35s, WP34S, HP Prime

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:50 pm

@Jaco:
What for do you want the archaic Greek characters?
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:13 pm

Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:50 pm
@Jaco:
What for do you want the archaic Greek characters?
Hi Walter,

For symmetry on the keyboard, complete with Greek letters without gaps, and to complete the Milesian numeral sequence, as it was almost complete in your font except for 6, 90 and 900 which would complete the series 1-900.

The thought process went as follows: Initially I looked at the Greek letters on the layout and I missed Digamma which would visually sit nicely on F. When I mentioned that, Dani helped re-arrange the lot and the other two archaic letters popped out to make a nice set of the Milesian numeric values. I made the glyphs for 6, 90 and 900 and re-arranged the Greek soft menus to have the Milesian numeral sequence 1-9, 10-90 and 100-900 in correct order as well.

Regards
Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:13 pm
Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:50 pm
@Jaco:
What for do you want the archaic Greek characters?
Hi Walter,

For symmetry on the keyboard, complete with Greek letters without gaps, and to complete the Milesian numeral sequence, as it was almost complete in your font except for 6, 90 and 900 which would complete the series 1-900.

The thought process went as follows: Initially I looked at the Greek letters on the layout and I missed Digamma which would visually sit nicely on F. When I mentioned that, Dani helped re-arrange the lot and the other two archaic letters popped out to make a nice set of the Milesian numeric values. I made the glyphs for 6, 90 and 900 and re-arranged the Greek soft menus to have the Milesian numeral sequence 1-9, 10-90 and 100-900 in correct order as well.

Regards
Jaco
Hmmh. Please remember Digamma is pronounced like W, while Phi is pronounced like F. And the Milesian numeral system (as the Roman numeral system) was one reason why elementary math was very un-intuitive at those times (the Indo-Arabic numeral system was and is far better suited for such operations). And since those archaic letters are not used for more than 1000 years, I don't see a pressing need for them - we also won't include Germanic runes etc.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:24 am

Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:13 pm
Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:50 pm
@Jaco:
What for do you want the archaic Greek characters?
Hi Walter,

For symmetry on the keyboard, complete with Greek letters without gaps, and to complete the Milesian numeral sequence, as it was almost complete in your font except for 6, 90 and 900 which would complete the series 1-900.

The thought process went as follows: Initially I looked at the Greek letters on the layout and I missed Digamma which would visually sit nicely on F. When I mentioned that, Dani helped re-arrange the lot and the other two archaic letters popped out to make a nice set of the Milesian numeric values. I made the glyphs for 6, 90 and 900 and re-arranged the Greek soft menus to have the Milesian numeral sequence 1-9, 10-90 and 100-900 in correct order as well.

Regards
Jaco
Hmmh. Please remember Digamma is pronounced like W, while Phi is pronounced like F. And the Milesian numeral system (as the Roman numeral system) was one reason why elementary math was very un-intuitive at those times (the Indo-Arabic numeral system was and is far better suited for such operations). And since those archaic letters are not used for more than 1000 years, I don't see a pressing need for them - we also won't include Germanic runes etc.
I agree on the modern number choice to use! I'm not trying to do math using these letters - it is enhancing a character set that you had, for the sake of completeness and beauty. The whole purpose of having Greek characters is certainly not to write essays with them, but to occasionally make program text prettier by using nicely crafted Greek glyphs as is needed with alphanumeric characters.

The sounds and meanings on the keys to me was a compromise: I tried to match to ABC more or less in sequence, but also making exceptions trying to fit Greek symbols to keys in a way that makes sense to try remember the few characters one might repeatedly use. The sequence on the soft menus (since you can see what you want to type) is simply in numerical order. And that satisfied the urge to have things in order ;-)

Here I listed the soft menus and hard key allocations. The second table lists both allocations: https://gitlab.com/Jaymos/wp43c/issues/3#note_217180634

Regards
J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:52 am

Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 pm
And since those archaic letters are not used for more than 1000 years, I don't see a pressing need for them - we also won't include Germanic runes etc.
It may be ignorance on my part, but I am not aware of archaic Germanic contributions to math and science rivalling the Greek?
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:22 am

H2X wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:52 am
Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 pm
And since those archaic letters are not used for more than 1000 years, I don't see a pressing need for them - we also won't include Germanic runes etc.
It may be ignorance on my part, but I am not aware of archaic Germanic contributions to math and science rivalling the Greek?
You are right. I should have chosen Sumeric wedge script instead.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:10 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:22 am
H2X wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:52 am
Walter wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 pm
And since those archaic letters are not used for more than 1000 years, I don't see a pressing need for them - we also won't include Germanic runes etc.
It may be ignorance on my part, but I am not aware of archaic Germanic contributions to math and science rivalling the Greek?
You are right. I should have chosen Sumeric wedge script instead.
I would agree, I think, had it been in demand among scientists / mathematicians... :-)

More seriously, wouldn't somebody looking for a Greek letter for whatever purpose want to have the full range of options, rather than be limited to the ones already popular? I think it doesn't hurt to allow that freedom.
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:22 pm

The WP43C emulator jumped ahead into a new dimension.

The alpha input screen has been improved significantly by Dani over the last few days. He cleaned up a lot of the visual clutter and made the key labels context sensitive.

- Firstly, the button labels change to A-Z when entering alpha mode with the yellow shifts on the bezel.
- Secondly, when shifted to upper case, upper case letters and upper case Greek letters appear, and the same with lower case.

Thank you very much Dani. I'm really glad he coded this one - all that GTK work is one too much for me. Well done. This, together with the full keyboard control that I did last week makes the emulator really nice to work with.

There were also a few emulator and firmware bug fixes, in particular the navigating of menus in alpha mode had a few bugs that I fixed (which I caused in the first place). Also Martin's proper parallel function, and some general updates from the main 43S project that was integrated into the code.

Also quite nice is the ALPHA HOME concept that I introduced after an idea Dani verbalised. Triple shift pulls up the menu in alpha mode.

Here the DM42 image: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/43C_12L2.pgm
Here the Windows emulator: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/WP ... -09-18.zip

Image
Upper case left, lower case right. Note the upper case A and lower case alpha in the screen to right indicating case.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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