43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
Dani R.
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:32 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:30 pm
...

Exchange BITS and PARTS? (ulterior motive; possibly BIN,DEC HEX and WSIZE will be added to the menu BITS at some point...)
I thought long and hard on this. INTS and BITS fit really nice together. But unfortunately also FLAGS and BITS. I want to keep FLAGS on the for 42S familiarity, so I prefer if BITS stay with FLAGS.

But you made me think. INTS really is a command function menu with MOD RMDR etc, and not a programming menu. So it belongs in row 6 closer to the "calculator part". The only space is next to PROB. So it goes there.
INTS[g][ * ] of course opens new possibilities, it seems clear to have INTS on the 6th row.
With the green bordered positions I am also absolutely of the opinion that these assignments should not be moved any more. Unless, of course, there is a requirement that has to be weighted higher than what was previously thought.

The 5th line makes sense for me, I think this adjustment to Layout 2 is quite appropriate. I mean, there are no overlays produced yet, we can still push around. The previous version had something for itself, but over time you will have got used to this change.

To [ 0 ], [ . ] in the 8th line; I can imagine different solutions:
TIMER INFO SHOW VIEW
TIMER VIEW SHOW INFO
VIEW TIMER SHOW INFO
I'd like to have INFO[g][ . ] so that [ 0 ] is only for functions and another menu has found its way to the right. But this is not really crucial.

To the 7th line; In general it is possible to consider LOOP PARTS TEST STK CLK, as well from the 8th line P.FN and I/O to give a different assignment. I myself cannot decide what I would like to have on [f][ 3 ] and [f][ - ]. Probably I need a next mock up to see what bothers me.



P.S.
The letter on [ - ] on the DM42 is "-", as is the shifted letter on [ - ], for whatever reason, but not "_".
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:50 am

I quickly interfere in the typeface discussion here, but I'm just away again, because I definitely don't understand enough about this.
To a SwissMicros calculator, I think, Frutiger would fit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frutiger_(typeface)
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:40 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:50 am
I quickly interfere in the typeface discussion here, but I'm just away again, because I definitely don't understand enough about this.
To a SwissMicros calculator, I think, Frutiger would fit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frutiger_(typeface)
I did a VERY QUICK mockup, just for relative size, stroke etc, all the fonts were manually (graphically, not vector) compressed. Of course the Times Roman x in the Lastx should not have been squashed the same way. But it is a mockup to look at the other fonts, not the math font. I visually made it a bit larger than the gold/blue fonts as discussed.

This is JUST a graphical mockup superimposing stuff on stuff. So crude.

Screenshot 2019-08-20 at 14.25.05.png
Screenshot 2019-08-20 at 14.25.05.png (178.93 KiB) Viewed 529 times
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm

Thank you gentlemen. I just now got back to the computer ... downloaded as many of the Frutiger fonts as I could find (they are pretty nice, a good choice as well), and installed the whole lot including the elusive Neue Haak Grotesk.

Now finally able to dial right in on this with precision. No compromise ...

Thanks again!
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:56 pm

I found an interesting phenomenon. Maybe see if you guys experience it too:

Looking at my font mockup on my 15" Mac screen, I prefer Frutiger by far, it is most beautiful, even if compressed.

But looking at the message on my phone screen, I prefer the Haas by far, not for beauty, but for legibility. Note, not even the other Swiss equivalents are that legible to my eyes on the small scale.

Maybe it's me, pushing my Haas again, but maybe it is indeed more legible. I'd like more critical opinions on legibility, not beauty or origin.

I did ask someone with visual challenges, and she picked Frutiger on the large screen, and SWISS BLACK on the small screen.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:05 pm

That's why I think it makes sense to make prints 1:1 or 2:1. I think a paper better reflects how a printed overlay will look like than what you see on a screen, no matter what size.
DM42 SN:00032

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:50 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:56 pm
I found an interesting phenomenon ...

Maybe it's me, pushing my Haas again, but maybe it is indeed more legible. I'd like more critical opinions on legibility, not beauty or origin.
There are indeed real limitations encountered when tying to get an accurate 'read' on what is before you ... when the process is mediated by anything ... in this case, a screen. At this point the most accurate way to get a reasonably true-to-life sense, perhaps, is to have to have a few of the renderings photo printed to scale on photo paper. Only then will you have a tangible representation, and then know what is there ... and what is not. Legibility, and everything else.

On feeding back through an imposed filter of only 'what is most legible' ... have strong views there. Just not sure that this is the best forum for that discussion/exchange ... :D
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:29 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:32 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:30 pm
...

Exchange BITS and PARTS? (ulterior motive; possibly BIN,DEC HEX and WSIZE will be added to the menu BITS at some point...)
I thought long and hard on this. INTS and BITS fit really nice together. But unfortunately also FLAGS and BITS. I want to keep FLAGS on the for 42S familiarity, so I prefer if BITS stay with FLAGS.

But you made me think. INTS really is a command function menu with MOD RMDR etc, and not a programming menu. So it belongs in row 6 closer to the "calculator part". The only space is next to PROB. So it goes there.

To [ 0 ], [ . ] in the 8th line; I can imagine different solutions:
TIMER INFO SHOW VIEW
TIMER VIEW SHOW INFO
VIEW TIMER SHOW INFO
I'd like to have INFO[g][ . ] so that [ 0 ] is only for functions and another menu has found its way to the right. But this is not really crucial.
I like
TIMER VIEW SHOW INFO
I feel that VIEW must be blue, because also REGS and FLAG.V are blue. Double tap viewing functions. Also, if moved as is, the two blue commands are above and below each other which groups it better. (SAVE & VIEW)
Also INFO must be blue for that reason.
TIMER starts the timer functionality, so it must have a simple f shift.
And SHOW stays yellow because of 42S familiarity.
Works.
To the 7th line; In general it is possible to consider LOOP PARTS TEST STK CLK, as well from the 8th line P.FN and I/O to give a different assignment. I myself cannot decide what I would like to have on [f][ 3 ] and [f][ - ]. Probably I need a next mock up to see what bothers me.
I looked at the combinations for the LOOP PARTS TEST STK CLK line,. and I can find no real improvement. I think it is logical.

P.S.
The letter on [ - ] on the DM42 is "-", as is the shifted letter on [ - ], for whatever reason, but not "_".
Onto the todo list.

I will now put these changes onto a temporary L1A.
We have a good Layout1.
We have a good Layout2 for label-less use.
I am challenging the L1 layout for a possibly better one.

Below the L1A layout, with the logical groups marked. Interesting.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:14 pm

The presumption is that we all like Layout 1, as we haven't heard complaints on Layout 1 for a while. The challenge is,

Is Layout 1 is the ultimate keyboard according to my goals? Or is the challenger more practical.

LEFT is LAYOUT 1

RIGHT is the challenger LAYOUT 1A

Thoughts? I quite like the challenger.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
Posts: 506
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:45 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
The letter on [ - ] on the DM42 is "-", as is the shifted letter on [ - ], for whatever reason, but not "_".
In alpha mode, the [-] produces a "_" underscore.
In alpha mode, the [+] produces a " " space.

The font they provide for the emulator does not have a suitable visible 'space' character like '⎵' and I do not want to change their fonts - it is a maintenance problem when they change something as well, so I changed the space to two dots. Hope it is intuitive enough.

I'm sure inautilus can make a '⎵' on the template.

IMG_0440.png
IMG_0440.png (109.18 KiB) Viewed 465 times
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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