CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
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Walter
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by Walter »

sgleysti wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:56 pm
Walter wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:13 pm
toml_12953 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:58 pm
I can put it on Dropbox for free if you want PDF copies to be available.
Thanks, Tom. I'll return to that offer as soon as I can pick up DM42s for free.
My experience with calculators, electronic test equipment, ... ... is that one pays money for the hardware, but the manuals and documentation are available online in electronic form free of charge. A print manual, if available, comes with the hardware and might also be sold for a nominal fee.
Prices for calculators, electronic test equipment, etc. etc. with proper documentation are bundle prices generally, i.e. the company's effort for the documentation is taken into account. Where this doesn't apply, prices may differ.
sgleysti wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:56 pm
I understand that you have put an immense amount of careful work into the manuals you have written, and that is admirable. But I think most people have similar experiences to mine regarding the availability of documentation, and those experiences tend to shape expectations. These expectations are likely reinforced by the free availability of the old, likely still copyrighted HP manuals online in PDF form, the rise of free and open source software, and the rise of the open source hardware movement.
But you still pay for books in a bookshop, don't you?
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
sgleysti
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by sgleysti »

Walter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 12:31 am
Prices for calculators, electronic test equipment, etc. etc. with proper documentation are bundle prices generally, i.e. the company's effort for the documentation is taken into account. Where this doesn't apply, prices may differ.
Ahhhh.... this is where I misunderstood. I have never encountered the business model where the hardware and the manual are sold separately, with the hardware being at a lower price than the "bundle" price you mentioned. I just thought it was really strange that you would charge for manuals.

As stated before, I am accustomed to having the manual freely available, whether I have purchased the device or not. I often browse through the manual before I buy something in order to see how it works, particularly in the details.
Walter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 12:31 am
But you still pay for books in a bookshop, don't you?
I pay for books. I usually buy them used online. But I have not to date paid for a PDF copy of a manual. I did pay someone on eBay for nicely bound print copies of the old HP manuals, but I was paying for the printing and binding, as this person did not write them.

To be quite honest, if Swiss Micros were to adopt the same business model where they charged a bit less for their hardware but also charged for the manual, I would probably have never bought one of their products, as it feels like holding important information about the usage of the device hostage, in a sense (the language is extreme, but that's the feeling I get). The direction the C47 team is going in terms of developing an open and freely available manual seems much more aligned with both the norms of the calculator community and with people's expectations.
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Over_score
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by Over_score »

sgleysti wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:32 am
The direction the C47 team is going in terms of developing an open and freely available manual seems much more aligned with both the norms of the calculator community and with people's expectations.
1+ :D
DM42 SN00284 & SN03835 running C47, HP34C, HP41CV, HP42S, HP35s, WP34S, HP Prime
pm42
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by pm42 »

Over_score wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 8:19 am
sgleysti wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:32 am
The direction the C47 team is going in terms of developing an open and freely available manual seems much more aligned with both the norms of the calculator community and with people's expectations.
1+ :D
+2 8-)

I would never contribute to the WP43 project but if I find the time, I may very well create an iOS version of the C47.
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Walter
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by Walter »

sgleysti wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:32 am
Walter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 12:31 am
Prices for calculators, electronic test equipment, etc. etc. with proper documentation are bundle prices generally, i.e. the company's effort for the documentation is taken into account. Where this doesn't apply, prices may differ.
Ahhhh.... this is where I misunderstood. I have never encountered the business model where the hardware and the manual are sold separately, with the hardware being at a lower price than the "bundle" price you mentioned. I just thought it was really strange that you would charge for manuals.

As stated before, I am accustomed to having the manual freely available, whether I have purchased the device or not. I often browse through the manual before I buy something in order to see how it works, particularly in the details.
(Warning: This may become a longer discussion but it may be necessary.)

Indeed, that's a weird business model. Rest assured that for 'manuals freely available', there's company-internal accounting taking care of such work 'for free' being properly paid - and the device being priced accordingly (with or without a printed manual).

For the WP 34S, in particular, the 9 US$ requested are a donation to the project which Pauli, Marcus, and I did for free. 3 US$ for each of us are a symbolic price showing a little (3-US$-worth) appreciation for our work - although we know the internet provides far more subtle methods of paying for 'free' contents (which, alas, we can't use).
sgleysti wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:32 am
To be quite honest, if Swiss Micros were to adopt the same business model where they charged a bit less for their hardware but also charged for the manual, I would probably have never bought one of their products, as it feels like holding important information about the usage of the device hostage, in a sense (the language is extreme, but that's the feeling I get).
I concur in principle but ... you may experience really weird business models in real life, weirder than you imagined in your wildest dreams:

Let's assume a company (call it e.g. RL) selling calculators. For a special model, RL has outsourced SW development as well as documentation to two subcontractors, AB and CD. In consequence, RL provides the HW plus some basic OS, takes the SW developed and written by AB and the docs authored by CD, bundles HW, SW, and docs, and sells this package (branded RL) for a price XY. The incoming $$$ go to RL and (surprise!) stay there entirely - exactly 0.00 go to AB and CD.

Certainly you'd call that not a fair share, politely spoken, but nevertheless such attitudes may be observed. That may cause e.g. docs sold for a price >0 by CD then.
sgleysti wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:32 am
The direction the C47 team is going in terms of developing an open and freely available manual seems much more aligned with both the norms of the calculator community and with people's expectations.
May well be aligned with people's expectations. Though I don't see a manual of C47 yet. Wait and watch.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
pm42
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by pm42 »

Walter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:25 am
Though I don't see a manual of C47 yet. Wait and watch.
Plenty of open-source have excellent free documentation so you missed your point.

Also, C47 is a young project and you said yourself it took you a lot of time to write the WP34s documentation so we can wait.
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Walter
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by Walter »

pm42 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 11:14 am
Plenty of open-source have excellent free documentation so you missed your point.
Yes, they all spend their time for free certainly, don't they? Or do you happen to know their business model? Then enlighten me, please. TIA
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
chris185
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by chris185 »

This is one of those weird threads again. :roll:

Some auctores have a talent for rubbing people the wrong way.

On the other hand, “I have expectations” isn’t really a good justification for telling someone else what to do with their property.

And of course, everyone seems to have problems understanding the concept of free (open source) software etc.

I suppose it’s ok to use free software to develop, to use free software to write docs, to use other people’s free libraries, servers, forums, comments, suggestions, bug reports etc.

One is then free to release one’s code and documentation as free (making use of other people’s free contributions, and “encouraging” others to do the same).

And then one is free to make snide and snarky comments whenever someone else actually makes use of these freedoms.

Lots of freedom everywhere ;)
rprosperi
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by rprosperi »

Let's keep the discussion here focused on Swiss Micros related products please, this is not a Forum for debating the pros and cons of societal concepts like open source, etc. - this has proven highly disruptive in the past.

The discussion of the 34s documentation (which btw is excellent and easily well worth $9) is not directly related to the SwissMicros products and should continue elsewhere if you wish.

Whatever one may expect, the WP34S team is free to choose whatever model they prefer; please choose to use it or not, but do not take time, space, etc. here to critique it.

I'd prefer to not close this thread, but will if needed.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
pm42
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Re: CAVEAT AVCTOR (WP34S)

Post by pm42 »

Walter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 12:38 pm
Yes, they all spend their time for free certainly, don't they? Or do you happen to know their business model? Then enlighten me, please. TIA
That is the problem with you: you do not even understand what open-source is.
rprosperi wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 2:44 pm
Whatever one may expect, the WP34S team is free to choose whatever model they prefer;
Except they did not choose. For instance, I hope that the Stopwatch function is not in the paid manual because I wrote it and nobody ever asked me if it was ok to make money out of the documentation of my work which was intended to be 100% free.

Of course I do not care and what I contributed (Stopwatch & emulators) is a very small part of the work.
But you cannot be open-source one day, aggregate the contributions and work of many then decide to make money out of it: this is not "the team decided", this is "one person decided" and one of the issues at hand.

But ok, I'll stop.
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