43S News

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
EM41
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Re: 43S News

Post by EM41 »

What is logical and practical all relates to the way you use a calculator.
Holding the machine with both hands and entering the digits with your right thumb and entering the operators and enter key with the left thumb more or less dictates that the operators should be on the left side if you are right handed.
For left handed it should be the opposite and comparing with computer keyboards or other devices makes also no sense for the same reason.

If you use only your index finger the layout makes no difference, another reason to put the operators at the left side.
One reason I rarely use my DM42, always grab the DM41 for a quick calculation the 42 just doesn't feel right (for the rest its a brilliant calculator).
I am happy we have a choice for the future WP43 but for me its operators on the left side.
HP41C (2x), HP41CV, HP41CX, DM41X β, DM41X, DM42, HP11C, HP48G, HP97
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

STS-741 wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:59 am
Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:14 pm
Ummh, what? To which 'usual order' did HP return? FYI: All HP pocket calculators from the HP-35 to the HP-41CX featured / × + − bottom up on their left, all later models from the HP-12C on had + − × / on their right. And whoever copies calculator layouts ...
Well, that should support my arguments, HP has finally returned to normality, operators remain on the right! And no, that's not a joke, it's the reality, but there should be people who don't want that to be true.
Well, you seem to miss the fact that HP launched the very first scientific pocket calculator of the world in 1972. And thus, / × + − was normality on such calculators, as were operators on the left. So in 1981, HP did not return to anything but turn to + − × / which had become the standard sequence for various reasons in the meantime. The reason for these operators then moving to the right was explained above.
STS-741 wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:59 am
Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:14 pm
Seriously, one can (and should) combine advantages as well.
What advantages? For example, that a pocket calculator is awkward to use for the majority just because a few lateral thinkers among the developers wanted to see their absurd ideas realized? It would take a lot of imagination to interpret that as progress!
One of the greatest advantages of being a developer is you can see your preferences becoming reality. Recommended! 8-)
STS-741 wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:59 am
Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:14 pm
And also in the IEEE links I didn't find anything about the chosen order of operations. Seems the statement still holds that HP chose / × + − (bottom up) for reasons no one knows anymore.
And that proves us now what? Is it that scientists and technicians basically need something different from the majority of users? Certainly not, since the requirements have not changed since then and now almost all pocket calculators have the operators on the right and they should stay there forever.
Which requirements? The ones of 1972? Or what's offered to "the majority of users" in 2020? Do they have the opportunity to require anything?

Eat sh*t. Billions of flies cannot be wrong...
DM42 SN: 00041 Beta
WP 43S running on this device

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L
toml_12953
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Re: 43S News

Post by toml_12953 »

Put the operators wherever you want! My fingers will get used to the location wherever it is. It seems like the 43S is not supposed to be a continuation of old HP calculators but a totally new concept that uses similar ideas. This is a new chapter, folks! Don't try to hamper it by tying it down to old designs. Just my 2¢ anyway.
Tom L

If I buy someone a drink to congratulate them, is it a Mazel Tov cocktail?

DM10L SN: 059/100
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DM42 SN: 00221 (Shipping)
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:30 pm
Well, you seem to miss the fact that HP launched the very first scientific pocket calculator of the world in 1972. And thus, / × + − was normality on such calculators, as were operators on the left. So in 1981, HP did not return to anything but turn to + − × / which had become the standard sequence for various reasons in the meantime. The reason for these operators then moving to the right was explained above.
Thats wrong - Even if you ignore me again, I say it again.

On all RPN-Portrait-Calulators from HP beginning from the HP-35 there was -+*/ on the left, on all landscape calculators (from 9x to voyager) thy typical layout from business-machines /*-+ on the right site - compare HP67 vs HP97.

They changed this when they started to build nonRPN/algebraic calculators in the same design like their rpn-models - compare HP22s vs HP32s and algebraic/rpn hybrids like the hp48.

There is also no "standard" today, Casio (so the HP10s) or Numworks for example uses an other layout then Texas Instruments.

Its OK to create a new design to make the 43s unique, but the current layout (/*-+ on the left) its a punch in the face for friends of the classic HP calculators and i think fans of the actual layout didn't like it either.

Do you know the concept of KO criteria? Something is just as made for you, but there is one thing that poisons it.
These KO criteria should be avoided with products or at least reduced to a minimum.

Classic design is a purchase reason for some classic fans and a knockout criteria for some "later"-design fans.
"Later"-design is a purchase reason for some "later" fans and a knockout criteria for some classic-design fans.

I don't know whether the mixed design is a purchase critera for even one user, but I can assure you that it is a knockout for someone.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
grsbanks
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Re: 43S News

Post by grsbanks »

C'mon everyone. The debate surrounding left vs. right comes up every so often but you know what? It's utterly pointless and just creates noise in the forum.

If you like the operator keys down the right of the keypad then that's fine. There are plenty of models laid out like that. If you like them on the left then that's fine too. IMO there is no right or wrong here, just personal preference. Just like vi vs. emacs.

The designers of a calculator can lay the keyboard out however they want. If you don't like it then don't buy it.
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who do not.
STS-741
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Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

grsbanks wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:14 am
If you like the operator keys down the right of the keypad then that's fine. There are plenty of models laid out like that. If you like them on the left then that's fine too. IMO there is no right or wrong here, just personal preference.
I'm sorry to tell you that, but you're 100% wrong! This topic has nothing to do with personal preferences or tastes, and even less with bad habits. Originally, it was only a question of which layout is most efficient for the majority of users. For the industry, this question has long since been clarified, and HP's company history plays only a minor role in this. I had already pointed out that in the design of each keyboard, aspects such as ergonomics, anthropotechnics and the physiological properties of hand motor skills are the most important basis for decision-making. There is enough literature on how to design input interfaces so that an undefined majority of users can cope with them.

So the question, what's decisive for the individual consumer and what is not, is a completely different topic, which should not have a place in this thread like tofu pudding. ;)
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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X »

STS-741 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:47 am
I'm sorry to tell you that, but you're 100% wrong!
[...]
I'm not 100% sure I believe either of those claims, nor do I agree with the latter. But I assume the bottom line is that you're not really interested in getting a WP43S.

Moving on...
Last edited by H2X on Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DM42 #40 running C43 | DM41X #50 | various HP models
The earth is flat. It just appears round because it is massive and curves spacetime.
rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi »

STS-741 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:47 am
grsbanks wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:14 am
If you like the operator keys down the right of the keypad then that's fine. There are plenty of models laid out like that. If you like them on the left then that's fine too. IMO there is no right or wrong here, just personal preference.
I'm sorry to tell you that, but you're 100% wrong! This topic has nothing to do with personal preferences or tastes, and even less with bad habits. Originally, it was only a question of which layout is most efficient for the majority of users. For the industry, this question has long since been clarified, and HP's company history plays only a minor role in this. I had already pointed out that in the design of each keyboard, aspects such as ergonomics, anthropotechnics and the physiological properties of hand motor skills are the most important basis for decision-making. There is enough literature on how to design input interfaces so that an undefined majority of users can cope with them.

So the question, what's decisive for the individual consumer and what is not, is a completely different topic, which should not have a place in this thread like tofu pudding. ;)
I'm equally sorry to say that you're 101% wrong. If you think that's not correct, well you're wrong about that too... See, it's easy to make bold, fully unsubstantiated and offensive remarks.

[Caution - troll food ahead] What you seem to not get is that the 43S, and all the other machines discussed here, are certainly not being designed for the majority of consumers and so vague generalizations as seen above don't apply (even if they were correct); they're for fans and experienced users of HP's RPN calculators, and so fall into generally 2 camps of preferences based on many years of experience using those. Hence the Left vs. Right debates...

I'm generally a fan of the Left club if I must pick one, and while I don't like the planned 43S operator sequence, see no logic at all in the order being used nor any valid reason to break with proven experience and am 100% certain it's terrible, I'll try the 43S as it comes, and probably find that it's quite usable. When the 49g/50g came out with the Enter key made 'normal' size and moved to both the right and bottom, it was clear the world was playing a cruel joke and this abomination could not be seriously considered for use, but (once they got rid of rubber keys) I found that I could quickly adapt and now can switch among them and still use them effectively. The case with the DM machines is slightly different, as these include different layouts on identical hardware, so one might expect issues, but switching between the DM42 and DM41X had been easy and still natural, probably from many years of using both of the original HP machines.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

rprosperi wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:54 pm
..., but switching between the DM42 and DM41X had been easy and still natural, probably from many years of using both of the original HP machines.
It's similar in my case. After HP41 and HP28, I prefer to use the arithmetic keys on the left, I can also handle them on the right. But changing the order of these keys with the same layout would be torture.

It's like with a car - whether steering weel left or right, I can handle both cars. But swapping the brakes and accelerator pedals on one of the two cars ....
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi »

Peet wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:29 am
It's similar in my case. After HP41 and HP28, I prefer to use the arithmetic keys on the left, I can also handle them on the right. But changing the order of these keys with the same layout would be torture.

It's like with a car - whether steering weel left or right, I can handle both cars. But swapping the brakes and accelerator pedals on one of the two cars ....
I fear you will be right, using the 43S will be especially frustrating as being correct with operators on the left, and thus immediately seemingly comfortable, yet the changed operator sequence will lead to many incorrect key hits. I'm definitely willing to give it a try, as Walter has consistently asked, I just hope he is actually willing to change them back to the expected order if the feedback (after a reasonable amount of use) shows the majority of users prefer the traditional - + * / order. But of course at the point, the keys would have been made the 'wrong' way.

So, it's probably a good idea to have the initial 'trial'/alpha batch be prepared as currently planned, but the volume production planning allow the operator key order to be changed if feedback indicates they should.

We should be willing to try it in good faith and hopefully Walter (and Martin and others on the 42S team) are equally open to change it.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
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