WP43 News

This area is for discussion about these families of custom high-end Scientific Calculator applications for SwissMicros devices.
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akaTB
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Re: 43S News

Post by akaTB »

redglyph wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:22 pm
Walter wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:27 pm
jfb9301 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:39 pm
Looking back at the keyboard layout, I have a question.

Why are the operators /*-+ on the left and the exit, up, down... on the right?
As Bob wrote already, this is a religuous topic ;) Nevertheless I'll try to summarice the facts:

All of HP's pocket calculators up to and including the famous HP-41C had the arithmetic operators on the left below ENTER. The Voyagers had to put them on the right for obvious reasons. With the Pioneers, they staid on the right - but ENTER remained on the left. So much about HP's logical development.

There was a very extensive discussion of this topic on the forum of MoHPC in 2012 IIRC, followed by a poll. After all, many people agreed on ENTER and the 4 operators should be in the same column (for various reasons). And the poll resulted in our decision (we, the developers) to place the 4 operators on the left, backed by a majority of votes IIRC.

So, now they are there.

There is, however, a medicine for those who would rather die than accept the 4 operators there: you're free to reassign each and every key and function of the 43S except USR. Hope this helps.
I had the same reaction when I saw the layout.

The fact people are divided on the position of the +, -, * and / may come from being left- or right-handed.

As a right-handed individual, I find that having the most frequent keys in the arc of my right thumb more convenient when I hold the calculator. Reaching the left column is a little harder, so it's fine for the initial ENTER but it's nice to have the main binary operators on the left for me. When it's on the desk it doesn't matter as much, of course.

The same applies to the f and g keys, it's often used so I like to have them close to the bottom, not up there, while the up/down and XEQ keys are less often used I think. At the end of the day, it should be guided by ergonomics and statistics like keyboards. Though I know there were compromises with the AZERTY and QWERTY layouts for mechanical reasons, but Bépo is a very good example of an ergonomic-based decision.

It remains that there are right- and left-handed people, so it will never please everyone. ;)

PS: yes, I know, it's a later answer. I knew of the WP 34S project but I'm just discovering this one, nice! Hopefully a good inspiration for a next Swissmicros calculator.
Have a look at my tagline. I'm right-handed.
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

redglyph wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:22 pm
As a right-handed individual, I find that having the most frequent keys in the arc of my right thumb more convenient when I hold the calculator. Reaching the left column is a little harder, so it's fine for the initial ENTER but it's nice to have the main binary operators on the left for me. When it's on the desk it doesn't matter as much, of course.

The same applies to the f and g keys, it's often used so I like to have them close to the bottom, not up there, while the up/down and XEQ keys are less often used I think. At the end of the day, it should be guided by ergonomics and statistics like keyboards.
Looking at Woodstocks and Spices with f and g, both were either in the top row of keys or the second one. Must have been ergonomic reasons.
redglyph wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:22 pm
Though I know there were compromises with the AZERTY and QWERTY layouts for mechanical reasons, but Bépo is a very good example of an ergonomic-based decision.
You'll hardly succeed in placing anything but alphabetical order on a calculator for the USA. Also QWERTZ doesn't help.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
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RJvM
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Re: 43S News

Post by RJvM »

With all the detailed discussions still going on, I wonder what the planned introduction date of a finished (1.0...) calculator would be, either the simulators (macOS please), or preferably the physical machine??
I have already indicated a very serious intention to participate in a pre-run trial, so, there's that as well.
Robbert Jan, MSEE, RPN user since 1976 and a collector for many years I now own all the important ones: HP-35, 45, 55, 65, 97, 19, 21, 25, 34, 10-16, 41, 42, 71, 48, 50, Prime, DM41, DM42, WP43, C47, R47; Project 47 team member https://47calc.com
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Don't you be afraid. The discussion about fraction display isn't really groundbreaking. The commands not yet implemented can be counted well using your fingers and toes. After all, that's "only" software.

The keyboard will stay as is. Now, we just need somebody who makes the keys and prints the bezel, glass, and backside of the calculator to our specifications.

That's almost all.
WP43 SN00000, 34S, and 31S for obvious reasons; HP-35, 45, ..., 35S, 15CE, DM16L S/N# 00093, DM42β SN:00041
Bill K. - USA
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Re: 43S News

Post by Bill K. - USA »

A common way I was taught to round back in college, and which I still tend to use, is to round to four significant digits if a number begins with one, and to three significant digits otherwise. Do others do this? Would this make a useful built-in function for the WP43?
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rudi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rudi »

Bill K. - USA wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:02 pm
A common way I was taught to round back in college, and which I still tend to use, is to round to four significant digits if a number begins with one, and to three significant digits otherwise. Do others do this? Would this make a useful built-in function for the WP43?
Yes, thats standard that a leading 1 doesnt count as a signifikant digit. Could be a cool feature to be avle to switch this on and off. Should apply for both FIX, SCI, and ENG modes.
/Rudi

DM-42 (s/n 06999), HP-42S, HP-35s, HP-11c, HP-32SII (ex HP-41CV, ex HP-75C, ex HP-48G + a lot, really lot of a accessories)
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rawi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rawi »

This is for the moderator: After 170 pages, 1700 replies, and more than 500,000 views: Wouldn't it make sense to open a new category for the 43S, just like for the DM 41X? There could be several chapters like progress, discussion of usability, etc. This could be much more structured.
redglyph
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Re: 43S News

Post by redglyph »

Walter wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:54 pm
Looking at Woodstocks and Spices with f and g, both were either in the top row of keys or the second one. Must have been ergonomic reasons.
It's all about evolution and improvement, you'll see the later Pioneer and Charlemagne models have their f and g migrate to the bottom. ;) (and the operators on the right)

Yeah, more seriously I have no idea what dictates the position of the keys. I think that in most cases they didn't ask themselves so many questions.
Walter wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:54 pm
You'll hardly succeed in placing anything but alphabetical order on a calculator for the USA. Also QWERTZ doesn't help.
Sorry, I'm wasn't talking about calculators since it would be impossible to have those layouts on calculators, even in landscape - the first row alone requires 10 keys. It was about computer keyboards, as an example of ergonomics.

EDIT:
rawi wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:34 pm
This is for the moderator: After 170 pages, 1700 replies, and more than 500,000 views: Wouldn't it make sense to open a new category for the 43S, just like for the DM 41X? There could be several chapters like progress, discussion of usability, etc. This could be much more structured.
Oh yes, I second that.
redglyph
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Re: 43S News

Post by redglyph »

Bill K. - USA wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:02 pm
A common way I was taught to round back in college, and which I still tend to use, is to round to four significant digits if a number begins with one, and to three significant digits otherwise. Do others do this? Would this make a useful built-in function for the WP43?
Curiously we never discussed that at college, nor how to use a calculator. Thankfully, because they would probably have discouraged us from using RPN calculators. My kids were told exactly which model to buy, for example (and yes, it was a Ti).

But at university we were taught to look at the actual precision of the data and write the numbers accordingly. To my knowledge, that has never been supported on calculators, even though units have been supported on a few models. It could have been useful now and then, calculating the precision of results after a few operations is not always easy.

PS: it's strange to consider '1' as separate in that system, since it has a significant value. Wouldn't it be more logical to give more digits for a zero? That'd be similar to what the scientific mode does, it brings the first significant digit for the mantissa (1-9) and adjust the exponent.
rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi »

rawi wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:34 pm
This is for the moderator: After 170 pages, 1700 replies, and more than 500,000 views: Wouldn't it make sense to open a new category for the 43S, just like for the DM 41X? There could be several chapters like progress, discussion of usability, etc. This could be much more structured.
No need for a moderator to do this, this (very!) long thread is simply a thread which Walter started and has simply continued. Your idea makes sense, and it probably would be helpful to split all the various 43 discussions into topical threads, maybe something like these:

43S News - already exists and can continue to be used as Walter originally planned - for news about the 43S

43S Keyboard - Despite Walter's recent comment that the 43K keyboard will not change (perhaps he meant only as regards that particular discussion - I am not sure) I'm confidant this will be an ongoing topic and it's useful to have it in its own place

43S Bug reports - obvious

43S Pilot Run - already exists

I'm sure there are other good topics as well, or perhaps these are enough until it actually is completed. Just Go ahead and create a new Post/Topic with a suitable title and folks will likely start using them. In your initial post, include some description of what should (and should not) be included in this thread. Most readers here are smart and generally follow the rules, though newcomers may (ok, will) post off-topic things, to which replies can steer the author to a more suitable thread.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282, DM41X: β00071 & 00656, DM10L: 071/100
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